My 4e Clone: Points of Light

Yes; I'm folding martial practices into the ritual system, and then giving each power source utility power-forms of rituals/MPs appropriate to its theme. So martial classes get access to utility powers which require physical skills, divine classes get access to utility powers which require Religion, and so on.

Haven't started this yet, as utility power balance isn't my strong suit.

Features of the Martial Practices to Consider:

[*]creates specializations within a skill - if you allow this it doesnt have to be connected to the other elements.
[*]ability to exert and spend a resource to enhance a skill in a focused fashion for a task (ex allowing taking ten under circumstances you normally couldnt like in a skill challenge).
[*]mostly naturalistic learning time and teacher and money - though I am adding Karma Points  (alternative reward can be spent on alternative rewards connected to my Birthright setting adjustments)
[*]creating long term structures like items note mp forging is highly inadequate - I am extending this legendary boons (via oaths) and masters training (via regimen) - can use karma points for these too.

Where are the PDFs to the PoL files? I can only find the Dragon ones from a couple of posts ago.

Check the bottom of the OP.

Thanks C4. I'd tried clicking on it (on my iPad) but I guess I was missing the link. I clicked on my PC and it worked this time.

It's an interesting take on 4th ed. I see where you've made some changes such as Combat Superiority only being for marked enemies, warrior's mark being a minor action instead of a free action. I'm surprised to see that Ranger has been removed from the Martial Power Source, although it certainly makes sense (Tempest Warrior vs Duelist are basically the same if you remove the Defender/Striker role). The beastmaster ranger is also the default one which certainly makes sense, in order to help differentiate it to the Fighter. I was really surprised to see the complete loss of ability scores.

It's an interesting take on 4e. Some major changes, but interesting overall.

JohnLynch wrote:

It's an interesting take on 4e.  Some major changes, but interesting overall.

Yup, PoL is my ideal 4e. A little simpler, a little more elegant, and a few more slaughtered sacred cows.

JohnLynch wrote:

I see where you've made some changes such as Combat  Superiority only being for marked enemies, warrior's mark being a minor action instead of a free action.

Yeah, I really wanted to streamline Combat Challenge and tone down Combat Superiority. Together, they make the fighter a bit too sticky right out of the gate -- I think *Thwack!* "No, you're staying right here!" is more appropriate for paragon levels -- and they make the class a bit needlessly confusing for new players. Seriously, two features with similar names, similar triggers, similar purposes, and slightly different results...

JohnLynch wrote:

I'm surprised to see that Ranger has been removed from the Martial Power Source, although it certainly makes sense (Tempest Warrior vs Duelist are basically the same if you remove the Defender/Striker role). The beastmaster ranger is also the default one which certainly makes sense, in order to help differentiate it to the Fighter.

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that had the primal power source been in PHB1, the ranger would have been primal. One can of course make an argument both ways, but well, I was filling out the power sources with four classes each, and I like the woodland warrior concept better than the RAWR I RAGE concept. (I think such a specific concept is more appropriate for a theme or paragon path.)

Not sure what you mean about the beastmaster being default -- unless you mean my Spirit Guide feature? Which is a wild shape kind of thing, rather than a pet thing. (Though there will be an animal companion-type option, one way or another.)

JohnLynch wrote:

I was really surprised to see the complete loss of ability scores.

Yup, this is one of those sacred cows that I was disappointed that 4e didn't slaughter to begin with. Scores were probably left as a mostly-vestigial stat so that the traditional roll-for-ability method could exist in the PHB in order to placate traditionalists. Five years later, I still don't think it was worth it.

I think condition tracks are great (innovative).

So do I - you introduced a few more conditions, but you streamlined it in such a way that it makes more sense. It's also a very nice codification of the progression of some conditions in 4e, like slow going up to immobilized, or dazed vs stunned.

Thanks, glad you folks think so!

The condition tracks have given me the tools to distinguish the controller role in a way that 4e never could, and to make elite/solo monsters truly resilient to nasty tricks without completely neutering status effects.

I am rather proud of them.

I rather like the idea of condition tracks myself.

Though I noticed something with your point-buy system. Your Specialist Array breaks the limit on your points available to spend. If you start with '-1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0', and your raise it to '-1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 4' your points available are -1. You might either need to increase the total points to 12, or decrease the price of '4' to 9 instead of 10.

Thanks Felorn! I must have mentally changed the total from 11 to 12 at some point, and simply forgotten to edit it.

C4 wrote:

Thanks, glad you folks think so!

The condition tracks have given me the tools to distinguish the controller role in a way that 4e never could, and to make elite/solo monsters truly resilient to nasty tricks without completely neutering status effects.

I am rather proud of them.

 I am a fan of 4e having natural descendents not actually clones so I try to encourage elements that show growth.

Garthanos wrote:

C4 wrote:

Thanks, glad you folks think so!

The condition tracks have given me the tools to distinguish the controller role in a way that 4e never could, and to make elite/solo monsters truly resilient to nasty tricks without completely neutering status effects.

I am rather proud of them.

 I am a fan of 4e having natural descendents not actually clones so I try to encourage elements that show growth.

Agreed. I'd rather not have a carbon copy. (Not a shot at anyone).

I think PoL having ability ratings and no separate modifier is a logical excellent example of another design principle  "remove complexity which contributes nothing".  People do like some complexity - so you have to make value judgements and weigh them.

In effect in PoL inherent bonus has been collapsed to be the norm - but there is still a way of having weapons which can enhance your attack, instead of presenting them as bonuses which break the math... you can make them operate much like they are in a game with inherent bonuses alongside weapons with pluses, ie they act like a buff that fades.

For instance flavor wise - say a sentient weapon which guides your attacks could have its own level. I am level 6 and I receive a level 8 item, at this time I can make attacks with accuracy as though I were level 8. Eventually my inherent awesome would outgrow the weapon ofcourse the weapon could have other elements that make it rock.

C4 wrote:

Chris24601 wrote:

Those type of powers could easily be re-written (with a bit of re-balancing if necessary) into free action triggers (ex. when you hit with an at-will attack the target also suffers X... where X is the difference between what an at-will would inflict and what the original power would have inflicted)... which reduces option paralysis itself, chancing of wasting something can lead to hording even if they will get it back next fight... I've seen this myself with the way some of my players hang onto regular fight encounter powers, but will let loose with their free action 'you hit' powers from themes and items immediately).

I haven't seen much of this kind of analysis paralysis, but I can get behind your reasoning. Also, if limited powers are activated upon hitting, accurate at-wills become more valuable and dailies no longer need miss entries.

I still have concerns, such as 'How do I balance a 'when you hit' effect against a traditional attack?' (Like I mention below, some conditions really call for traditional immediate attacks, and the thought of at-will immediate attacks kinda makes me cringe.)

Also, there are corner cases like the Dominate condition, which no player would want to add on to an at-will attack because...well, zapping the slave you just made isn't very smart. (Maybe as an aftereffect, but that could get wordy...) 

Kind of makes sense though... dominate is rather similar to mind rape an act of violence and the minds of lesser folk wont hold up.. even if you want them to do for you this is not normally gentle.

In 5e they have some abilities which work based on a hp threshold very much like the battlefield fight ending intimidate requiring a bloodied enemy? well the generalized value is it allows your allies to contribute to reaching the vulnerable state. A charm spell which itself tried to break their will and leaves them a less valuable tool afterwards sounds completely appropriate.

This is one of those features in 5e that make me sad (because good ideas shouldnt ever be tossed in with all that retro goo).

The PoL link doesnt look to be good anymore?

It still works, I just deleted the pdfs at some point. I'll throw updated versions up shortly, after I finalize a few new races.

an empty folder is so much less useful   

Link updated!

I added racial ability boosts back in, though there are some notable differences from 4e. Also, some of the new races (genies and wild folk) need a couple racial traits, but I'm kind of sick of races at the moment. So if you've got any suggestions, hit me up!

Do genies have access to a special high level ritual... called wish. ;-p.

Haha, I'll leave that ritual for the greater (monster manual) genies.

I've been thinking maybe I should come up with a unique name for my lesser (PC) genies, like genasi are the PC-race genies of D&D.

I was wondering if shrinking small to fit in there itty bitty living spaces could be a racial   
ok my silly buttons been hit...

So what about Djinnae for the air oriented ones and Afraet for the fire oriented ones.

Wrecan actually wrote up a 4e wish ritual ... 30th level main feature able to duplicate every lower level ritual..

I had actually been thinking it might be cool if learning certain magics transformed the one learning them...learning the most potent illusions bringing on fae nature... magics like wish bringing on a sort of djinn bloodedness.

C4 wrote:

Link updated!

Thanks ver much for sharing by the way some very interesting elements in there.

Liking, Granthal the Guardian Silya the Slayer. Hanja the Healer. Swanti the Censor

Magely Classes? ummmmm thas an odd bit of language use.