Gods & Heroes (4e Clone)

HERE IS THE LATEST VERSION

(Below link left for reference).

I've been working on a set of rules to take the best of 4th ed, Pathfinder and TSR-era D&D and incorporate it into a single set of rules. I initially started with AD&D 2nd edition as my base and build up from there. However I had problems with creating subsystems for every different class (particularly differentiating martial maneuvres and psionic powers). So I redid it starting from 4th ed as my base with it's unified power structure. Then just before Christmas I lost all my work. Fortunately I just found a backup so I've started redoing the work I'd lost.

Here are my efforts thus far.

My design goals are thus:

• Races: Most of the races were actually quite well balanced (with the exception of humans). I've brought in the static ability boost and the choice between 2 ability boosts. Furthermore I've granted each race the choice of two racial powers (not all are detailed) and allowed other races to gain encounter powers when appropriate (e.g. half-elf gaining an elven racial power).
  
  The reason for creating two racial powers was that so if one of the racial powers wasn't desired for any reason, the GM could ban it. Also Elves and Eladrin have been recombined as a single race. I still wanted to keep the rules backwards compatible with 4th ed so I've now differentiated them through their racial power.
  
• Classes: The classes are kept fairly the same. Some of them have had tweaks (e.g. Raging ability for Barbarians). The biggest changes have been to decouple the role with class and instead have the archetype/build determine your role. Also roles are typically depicted through an "augment ability". Most powers can be augmented with one of these abilities, but only one of the abilities.
  
• Powers: The powers are being OGL-ised and incorporated into the system. They're no longer fixed to a single class, but can instead be given to multiple classes. This has helped cut down on the redundant powers and created a big saving on page space.
  
  They're ordered by level. It was considered to order them by power source as well. However some classes (such as druids or an arcane knight class/archetype) cause problems in that their powers would be split across multiple power sources (some druid powers are the same as wizard powers or cleric powers) or require the same power be copy and pasted multiple times.
  
• Feats:Feats had two purposes in 4th ed. Make you more powerful OR make you more versatile. By using the same resources for different purposes we've got the classic problem we've always had in jack of all trades, master of none.
  
  Unlike D&D Next, I decided to make feats about versatility rather than powerful.
  
• Multiclassing: 4th ed required you to use up to 4 feats and your paragon path to multiclass (or you could Hybrid post-PHB3). I've reduced this to 1 feat per class. This grants you an augmentation ability and access to that classes' powers.
  
  That said I was concerned about the lack of class identity. However the only way to gain proficiency in weapons or armour is through your primary class. Some classes also have other class features that can't be gained through multiclassing.
  
• Magic Items: I've gone through all of the PHB1 and some of the PHB2 in finding magical items. This draft has armour and weapons and I'm working on fixing up my notes on wondrous items and consumables.
  
  I've removed boosters to Defenses and Attack as inherent bonuses has been baked into the system math. I've also worked to make sure each item is useful regardless of whether you're level 1 or level 30. I've also assigned levels to each magical item, although these won't be reviewed until after the powers section is 100% completed.
  
  Finally I included optional rules for buying magical items, creating magical items and random treasure tables. Mostly because these take up fairly minimal space and cater to people who want these rules.
  
• System Math: I've consolidated the boosts to attack from 1/2 level, magical weapons, feats, and ability score boosts into a straight up +1 per level for attacks and defenses.
  
  In order to compensate for the removal of ability score boosts each class has gotten a sleight boost in HP.
  
  NADs seemed to me to be very similar to AC defenses when you incorporate most melee attacks getting an automatic +2 bonus for flanking which (without taking a feat) implement users normally couldn't get. As such implements now get a +2 proficiency bonus.
  
  Although monsters aren't built yet the system will be based around hitting monsters 70% of the time (with a flank for AC), while PCs should be able to get through 4 standard encounters before being depleted of all of their resources (or 2 standard fights and 1 hard fight). Obviously YMMV.
  

Work that's still to be done:

• Powers: Finish up the rest of the powers (I've gotten half of the Rogue powers done and most of the fighter/ranger powers tweaked and fixed up. Alas I've yet to copy that from the backup into this version as the backup is in PDF whereas I'm working from word).
  
• Utility Powers: I'll be incorporating skill powers into utility powers from the start. I'll also be incorporating rituals with an "at-will" version and a "daily" version.
  
  Ultimately I hope to have utility powers be accessible via feats so that players can determine if they want utility powers and how many they want (to help players manage decision paralysis). At this point they're seperate though until the utility powers have been developed and I can compare them with other feats.
  
• Champion Classes and Epic Classes: These will be updated from Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies.
  
• Skills: These will be identical to 4th ed skills.
  

Although the rules aren't finished, at 59 pages they are a good way towards showing what the final rules would look like. I'd be interested to hear what people think about the work I've done thus far.

The goal has been to take the spirit and essence of 4th ed and OGLise it much like has been done with BECMI, AD&D 1st edition and AD&D 2nd edition. I believe I've achieved this and thus am providing under the OGL.

There was a blurb in the pdf mentioning "classless" and yet you comment "That said I was concerned about the lack of class identity."? Some confusion - Is that a different project?

Ignoring the couple of Martial Practices which are just "poor" translations of rituals... Most seem to be in general a technique for expending heroic effort in the form of Healing Surges to boost up skill utilities... since you were talking utility powers in compressed form I was wondering if you had considered MPs

Garthanos wrote:

There was a blurb in the pdf mentioning "classless" and yet you comment "That said I was concerned about the lack of class identity."? Some confusion - Is that a different project?

This document has gone through a different drafts (As you can see by the version). At one point a classless approach was considered using 4e as the framework but has since been abandoned. I'll edit that out for the next draft.

Garthanos wrote:

Ignoring the couple of Martial Practices which are just "poor" translations of rituals... Most seem to be in general a technique for expending heroic effort in the form of Healing Surges to boost up skill utilities... since you were talking utility powers in compressed form I was wondering if you had considered MPs

I hadn't but I definitely will take a second look at them (my initial review was unimpressed after seeing what we're basically rituals). I'm not sure if they'd appear as utility powers or feats (moot point if utility powers become accessible via feats). I've renamed Healing Surges to Heroic Surges to get around copyright but also to help open up the design space. I've seen some good things done here with healing surges and definitely like that flexibility.

Grand Master Trainings are seen as coming out of the same pool of resources as magic items but if you look at the concept ...its more spending "wealth" and gaining a power much like MP - Grandmaster Trainings can be combat oriented however.. (and since some magic items also tap the Healing Surge as a resource - some GMT might be very like MP).

I greatly approve of the rename as well as emphasizing broader use of Heroic Surges in various fashions.

It has been pointed out that 4e attributes may have expanded pretty high but they did not provide many of the truly mythic extremes that actually happened in 3e somebody who has god like strength in 4e terms might still be tame in terms of basic capabilities like lifting throwing and jumping... compared to some figures in legend and myth (or even 3e)

This seems to be even a bigger issue when you suppress attribute enhancement... something in NEXT too. One of the posters in Next was proposing feats or similar to allow more extremes of ability in arenas such as lifting and jump distances and similar things.

(the examples I have given are for strength or athletics but that is partly because its easiest)

I often wonder what would happen if all the people making their own 4e clone were ever able to join up and build it together...

TjD

Durriken wrote:

I often wonder what would happen if all the people making their own 4e clone were ever able to join up and build it together...

TjD

Madness would ensue...

No, but in all seriousness it might would be cool to see. Though I have a feeling that many people have different ideas of how a new 4e/4.5 should go down.

But so far it looks rather interesting. I like what you have so far. But If I was you I wouldn't make the skill system exactly identicle. I personally found the 4e skill system a little lack luster at times. Perhaps a skill system in between Pathfinder and 4e. With maybe a little World of Darkness twist on it (varying degrees of skill and possible specializations).

Garthanos wrote:

It has been pointed out that 4e attributes may have expanded pretty high but they did not provide many of the truly mythic extremes that actually happened in 3e somebody who has god like strength in 4e terms might still be tame in terms of basic capabilities like lifting throwing and jumping... compared to some figures in legend and myth (or even 3e)

This seems to be even a bigger issue when you suppress attribute enhancement... something in NEXT too. One of the posters in Next was proposing feats or similar to allow more extremes of ability in arenas such as lifting and jump distances and similar things.

(the examples I have given are for strength or athletics but that is partly because its easiest)

Perhaps another tier would do the trick? If you remember in Old School D&D they had tiers just like 4e had. You know, the Beginner Box, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortal? 4e already has 4 of them covered. All we need is the immortal one. Levels 31-40. Of course finding enemies at that high of a level will be hard. Gods, Arch-Devils, Creators of the gods, etc. You might would have to even spread 4e's roster of critters. Maybe instead of gods being low to mid 30's in levels perhaps they could be early late to early 40's.

With an immortal tier you could add a whole new section of feats to include ridiculous stuff like bench pressing elephants. Not to mention PC's could really delve more into their Epic Destinies and possibly even an Immortal Destiny of sorts.

I feel like I've kinda went off topic... But I wanted to bring this up anyhow.

Quick question to the original poster:

Why did you decide to remove Ability Score increases, and make 4e math scale even higher with a solid +1 bonus @ each level? I would personally go with something with a tad bit less number bloat like +1/4 level, rounded down of course.

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Quick question to the original poster:

Why did you decide to remove Ability Score increases, and make 4e math scale even higher with a solid +1 bonus @ each level? I would personally go with something with a tad bit less number bloat like +1/4 level, rounded down of course.

Once you incorporate all the bonuses -- including attribute and enhancement and +1/2 and expertise I believe together --> +1 per level is not faster than 4e's it is intended to be same.

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Durriken wrote:

I often wonder what would happen if all the people making their own 4e clone were ever able to join up and build it together...

TjD

Madness would ensue...

No, but in all seriousness it might would be cool to see. Though I have a feeling that many people have different ideas of how a new 4e/4.5 should go down.

I certainly think there should be a cross pollination of ideas... C4's ideas (called Points of Light) are interesting too.

Garthanos wrote:

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Quick question to the original poster:

Why did you decide to remove Ability Score increases, and make 4e math scale even higher with a solid +1 bonus @ each level? I would personally go with something with a tad bit less number bloat like +1/4 level, rounded down of course.

Once you incorporate all the bonuses  -- including attribute and enhancement and +1/2 and expertise I believe together --> +1 per level is not faster than 4e's it is intended to be same.

I suppose I didn't take into consideration feat taxes.

Garthanos wrote:

Grand Master Trainings are seen as coming out of the same pool of resources as magic items but if you look at the concept ...its more spending "wealth" and gaining a power much like MP - Grandmaster Trainings can be combat oriented however.. (and since some magic items also tap the Healing Surge as a resource - some GMT might be very like MP).

I greatly approve of the rename as well as emphasizing broader use of Heroic Surges in various fashions.

I'd forgotten about Grand Master Training. Working off that, would you mind if I put in something like the following in the Magic Items section:

Reflavouring Magic Items

In some campaigns it may not be appropriate or flavourful to hand out magic items, but you may still want to reward players with treasure. In these cases you can take the power of an item and flavour it as:

• A divine gift from the gods
  
• A maneuvre taught by someone who had become a master in their fighting style
  
• A boon from the spirits
  
• A gift as part of an eldritch pact
  
• An inner potential that had always been there but only just now unlocked.
  

Such boons or fighting maneuvres could simple be always turned on (such as for items with at-will powers or constant effects). However daily powers would be a bit too powerful without a cost. Now using the cost of normal magic item uses wouldn't make any sense in the game world. Instead a new rule would be added to the daily power:

You spend a heroic surge as part of using this power. You can only activate one such power per challenge (twice per challenge at level 11, three times per challenge at level 21).

---
What do you think? Could also look at existing Grand Master Training maneuvres and create magic items from them or (more preferable option) convert them into utility powers where appropriate.

Garthanos wrote:

It has been pointed out that 4e attributes may have expanded pretty high

I never saw that. From levels 1-20 in Pathfinder you can boost an ability score up 5 times through natural means. In 4th ed in that level range you can do it 5 times. The biggest difference is you boost multiple ability scores in 4th ed, whereas in Pathfinder you typically just boost the one. However as a counter argument I offer the magic items that boost ability scores, thus allowing a single score to grow to a higher value.

Garthanos wrote:

somebody who has god like strength in 4e terms might still be tame in terms of basic capabilities like lifting throwing and jumping... compared to some figures in legend and myth (or even 3e)

This seems to be even a bigger issue when you suppress attribute enhancement... something in NEXT too. One of the posters in Next was proposing feats or similar to allow more extremes of ability in arenas such as lifting and jump distances and similar things.

(the examples I have given are for strength or athletics but that is partly because its easiest)

Are you advocating a boost to ability scores to help reach those mythic values? I personally think the skill system does it suitably well (and I personally would never call for an ability score check in 4th ed, but instead a skill check). In 3.5e the numbers were higher as you got: 3 (1st level) + 20 (+1 skill point per level) = 24+ability score (which, without magic item abuse, would be close to its original value except for 1 or 2 ability scores).

Level 20 4th ed actually curbs that as it's only: 5 (trained) + 10 (half level) = 15+ability score.

No matter what the number is you can always have epic maneuvres available to PCs. You just adjust the DC values. I'd personally prefer +level for skill checks in Gods & Heroes for simplicity and consistency.

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Durriken wrote:

I often wonder what would happen if all the people making their own 4e clone were ever able to join up and build it together...

TjD

Madness would ensue...

No, but in all seriousness it might would be cool to see.

I'm definitely keen on working with other people (there's a lot of work involved for just 1 person). It also helps in picking up parts I've overlooked (e.g. Grand Master Training) and come up with ways to improve things.

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

But If I was you I wouldn't make the skill system exactly identicle. I personally found the 4e skill system a little lack luster at times. Perhaps a skill system in between Pathfinder and 4e. With maybe a little World of Darkness twist on it (varying degrees of skill and possible specializations).

In practise I've found the Pathfinder system and 4th ed system to be identical for most cases. For the vast majority of skills the people I play with put max ranks in their skills. Is it the number of 4th ed's skills you dislike? Or is it the lack of control at the bonuses you receive as you level?

I could definitely see an optional rule following something like this:

Skill Ranks (Optional Rule)

As you gain levels you receive 4 skill ranks at each level that you can put into any of your class skills. When you first place a rank in a skill you get a +4 bonus for that skill. If you gain training through another ability (such as a racial trait or a feat) you automatically get a +5+level bonus. This does not stack with the bonuses you would receive from your skill ranks.

----
It's a bit cludgy but could be used. You could even use it in 4th ed if you're happy to adjust the DCs (then again, with how many times they've been changed where's the harm in one more change?). I'd want much more closely resembling the 4th ed skill system as the default though as it's what (AFAIK) most 4th ed fans are accustomed to/like?

Garthanos wrote:

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Quick question to the original poster:

Why did you decide to remove Ability Score increases, and make 4e math scale even higher with a solid +1 bonus @ each level? I would personally go with something with a tad bit less number bloat like +1/4 level, rounded down of course.

Once you incorporate all the bonuses  -- including attribute and enhancement and +1/2 and expertise I believe together --> +1 per level is not faster than 4e's it is intended to be same.

Eaxactly. The math is: 15 (half level) + 4 (ability score boosts) + 6 (enhancement bonus) + 3 (expertise feats) = +28 over 30 levels.

So for backwards compatibility is why I'm keeping such a high boost. This keeps it consistent with both 4th ed and Pathfinder believe it or not.

Are ability score boosts a sacred cow for us 4th ed fans? I didn't view them as such, and am happy to just consolidate them all into a flat +level bonus. But if they are considered important to the story of the game, we could have:

• 1/2 level bonus
  
• 2 ability score boost every even level (15)
  
• +1 all ability scores at level 11
  
• +1 all ability scores at level 21
  
• +2 Champion Bonus at Level 11
  
• +2 Epic Bonus at Level 21
  

15 (1/2 level) + 8 or 9 (ability score boost) + 4 (tier boosts) = +27/+28

I'd initially tried something like this in an early draft, but I found it fairly clunky whereas a straight level bonus was much simpler and elegant. What do people think?

Garthanos wrote:

I certainly think there should be a cross pollination of ideas...  C4's ideas (called Points of Light) are interesting too.

I'm definitely in favour of that. When I first saw Points of Light I'd initially considered abandoning my project and seeing if I could help C4 with his (my "backup" was actually a draft I'd sent C4 just to say "hey! here's what I've done."). That said, I think Points of Light has moved quite a bit beyond a 4e clone and into becoming a game in it's own right that uses 4th ed as "inspiration" (much like 13th Age). Are there any ideas in particular you're a fan of that you'd like to see in Gods & Heroes?

Thanks everyone for the interest and I hope I've answered questions. I'm definitely keen on further suggestions/discussions to help improve the rules or even just get other opinions (such as on ability score boosters).

JohnLynch wrote:

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

But If I was you I wouldn't make the skill system exactly identical. I personally found the 4e skill system a little lack luster at times. Perhaps a skill system in between Pathfinder and 4e. With maybe a little World of Darkness twist on it (varying degrees of skill and possible specializations).

In practise I've found the Pathfinder system and 4th ed system to be identical for most cases. For the vast majority of skills the people I play with put max ranks in their skills. Is it the number of 4th ed's skills you dislike? Or is it the lack of control at the bonuses you receive as you level?

I could definitely see an optional rule following something like this:

Skill Ranks (Optional Rule)

As you gain levels you receive 4 skill ranks at each level that you can put into any of your class skills. When you first place a rank in a skill you get a +4 bonus for that skill. If you gain training through another ability (such as a racial trait or a feat) you automatically get a +5+level bonus. This does not stack with the bonuses you would receive from your skill ranks.

----
It's a bit cludgy but could be used. You could even use it in 4th ed if you're happy to adjust the DCs (then again, with how many times they've been changed where's the harm in one more change?). I'd want much more closely resembling the 4th ed skill system as the default though as it's what (AFAIK) most 4th ed fans are accustomed to/like?

I think the number of skills is perfect. It's is the flatness of the bonuses you get. I prefer to customize my skills as my character levels. A small optional rule like that could work just fine though. But it would either need a separate table of possible DC's or be made to work with the current 4e tables.

JohnLynch wrote:

Garthanos wrote:

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Quick question to the original poster:

Why did you decide to remove Ability Score increases, and make 4e math scale even higher with a solid +1 bonus @ each level? I would personally go with something with a tad bit less number bloat like +1/4 level, rounded down of course.

Once you incorporate all the bonuses  -- including attribute and enhancement and +1/2 and expertise I believe together --> +1 per level is not faster than 4e's it is intended to be same.

Eaxactly. The math is: 15 (half level) + 4 (ability score boosts) + 6 (enhancement bonus) + 3 (expertise feats) = +28 over 30 levels.

So for backwards compatibility is why I'm keeping such a high boost. This keeps it consistent with both 4th ed and Pathfinder believe it or not.

Are ability score boosts a sacred cow for us 4th ed fans? I didn't view them as such, and am happy to just consolidate them all into a flat +level bonus. But if they are considered important to the story of the game, we could have:

• 1/2 level bonus
  
• 2 ability score boost every even level (15)
  
• +1 all ability scores at level 11
  
• +1 all ability scores at level 21
  
• +2 Champion Bonus at Level 11
  
• +2 Epic Bonus at Level 21
  

15 (1/2 level) + 8 or 9 (ability score boost) + 4 (tier boosts) = +27/+28

I'd initially tried something like this in an early draft, but I found it fairly clunky whereas a straight level bonus was much simpler and elegant. What do people think?

After fiddling with the math for a bit I think I see what you mean. So this means that the tax feats will be removed? Cool.

But no. Honestly I'm not too attached to Ability Score increases. I would like to see more flavorful and fun feats though now that the dreaded feat tax can be annihilated. Perhaps extreme strength feats where you can lift so much weight you could be considered super-human. Like lifting... ummm... cows.

JohnLynch wrote:

Garthanos wrote:

Grand Master Trainings are seen as coming out of the same pool of resources as magic items but if you look at the concept ...its more spending "wealth" and gaining a power much like MP - Grandmaster Trainings can be combat oriented however.. (and since some magic items also tap the Healing Surge as a resource - some GMT might be very like MP).

I greatly approve of the rename as well as emphasizing broader use of Heroic Surges in various fashions.

I'd forgotten about Grand Master Training. Working off that, would you mind if I put in something like the following in the Magic Items section:

Reflavouring Magic Items

In some campaigns it may not be appropriate or flavourful to hand out magic items, but you may still want to reward players with treasure. In these cases you can take the power of an item and flavour it as:

• A divine gift from the gods
  
• A maneuvre taught by someone who had become a master in their fighting style
  
• A boon from the spirits
  
• A gift as part of an eldritch pact
  
• An inner potential that had always been there but only just now unlocked.
  

Such boons or fighting maneuvres could simple be always turned on (such as for items with at-will powers or constant effects). However daily powers would be a bit too powerful without a cost. Now using the cost of normal magic item uses wouldn't make any sense in the game world. Instead a new rule would be added to the daily power:

You spend a heroic surge as part of using this power. You can only activate one such power per challenge (twice per challenge at level 11, three times per challenge at level 21).

---
What do you think? Could also look at existing Grand Master Training maneuvres and create magic items from them or (more preferable option) convert them into utility powers where appropriate.

It can not only be game world but character style which determines whether items or gifts or whatever are appropriate might make it part of the wish list as well. Ie my character might be be keeping his eyes open for rumors about a teacher who knows ability such and such.

I like the bringing the item Daily costs in as part of the Heroic Surge system... much cleaner than 4e in that reguards.

JohnLynch wrote:

Garthanos wrote:

It has been pointed out that 4e attributes may have expanded pretty high

I never saw that. From levels 1-20 in Pathfinder you can boost an ability score up 5 times through natural means. In 4th ed in that level range you can do it 5 times. The biggest difference is you boost multiple ability scores in 4th ed, whereas in Pathfinder you typically just boost the one. However as a counter argument I offer the magic items that boost ability scores, thus allowing a single score to grow to a higher value.

I am not that familiar with 3e/PF and hence I rely on others for some of this, they indeed mentioned items and likely races with more extreme impact and various other elements but they were able to optimize there way in to jumping 100 feet and making truly obnoxious numbers on the lifting capacity.

Items in pre 4e were potentially intended to be a much greater part of the martial awesome - they were in 1e but it frequently failed to achieve the goal from my experience.

PoL was not intended to remain a Clone I think constructing a OGL 4e child makes sense too.

I was thinking with title like Gods and Heros - awakening divine epic attributes would actually be appropriate!!

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

I think the number of skills is perfect. It's is the flatness of the bonuses you get. I prefer to customize my skills as my character levels. A small optional rule like that could work just fine though. But it would either need a separate table of possible DC's or be made to work with the current 4e tables.

A separate table of DCs would probably be easiest. Anything else would just get too clunky (and thanks to errata half the pre-written adventures probably have the wrong DCs anyway).

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

After fiddling with the math for a bit I think I see what you mean. So this means that the tax feats will be removed? Cool.

But no. Honestly I'm not too attached to Ability Score increases. I would like to see more flavorful and fun feats though now that the dreaded feat tax can be annihilated.

If you have a look at the feats in the document I've aimed to make them more interesting then just boosts in to hit or damage numbers. Some of the more interesting ones are:

• Ally's Sacrifice (Bloodmage Sorcerer): Damage an ally instead of yourself to deal extra damage when casting a spell
  
• Life Drain (Bloodmage Sorcerer): Gain temps when you attack someone as an augment ability - this could be better worded in the doc (wonder what campaign setting these two feats could be used in? *innocent whistle*)
  
• Arcane Duelist: A feat that allows arcane spells to be delivered with a weapon attack vs AC rather than an implement vs a NAD.
  
• Action Point feats: Use your action point to allow someone else to spend a heroic surge, get bonus damage for 1 round, make a new saving throw or regain the use of a daily power.
  
• Opportunistic Trip: Do less damage on an AoO and instead trip them, truly making you a trip monkey.
  
• Versatile Training: Get a new at-will power.
  
• Racial Powers: Gain a new racial power from another race (limited to certain races).
  

Then there's other feats such as Power Attack where you trade out some of your attack bonus for a boost to damage and Combat Expertise where you can trade out some of your attack bonus for AC. These have been carefully kept in check to make sure neither is a "well duh!" and instead provide a tactical choice for the player.

That said I discovered, just like the D&D Next developers, that making feats that are interesting and offer more versatility rather than just a straight boost in power is hard. I've managed to do it with the feats provided. But thinking up new feats isn't easy. I've trawled through all 3 PHBs and some of the Power books looking for feats that are interesting but not a power boost (my favourite is the Arcane Duelist feat). This is part of the reason for wanting utility powers and feats to occupy the same resource cost. It's easier to come up with utility powers rather than feats.

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Perhaps extreme strength feats where you can lift so much weight you could be considered super-human. Like lifting... ummm... cows.

I'd see this as a utility power rather than a feat (although again, potentially the same thing).

Garthanos wrote:

It can not only be game world but character style which determines whether items or gifts or whatever are appropriate might make it part of the wish list as well. Ie my character might be be keeping his eyes open for rumors about a teacher who knows ability such and such.

Hadn't thought of that. Also a monk with a vow of poverty shouldn't be picking up magic items.. Hmm. Gives me some ideas on some new feats.

Garthanos wrote:

I like the bringing the item Daily costs in as part of the Heroic Surge system... much cleaner than 4e in that reguards.

Not actually what I'd originally intended (the use mechanic I was intending for just GMT/Boons). But such a good idea I'm going to steal it ;)I'd say give each class +2 heroic surges and then go for it. It should also help in higher levels in getting use out of your heroic surges (in Paragon tier I rarely used all of my healing surges in one session).

Garthanos wrote:

they indeed mentioned items and likely races with more extreme impact and various other elements but they were able to optimize there way in to jumping 100 feet and making truly obnoxious numbers on the lifting capacity.

Yeah. What people say happens in 3.5e is different to what actually happened (you may not know but 3.5e has healing surges. They're just called wands of cure light wounds. Same mechanic except unlimited in use, different fluff).

Garthanos wrote:

I was thinking with title like Gods and Heros - awakening divine epic attributes would actually be appropriate!!

Definitely. Could see some cool Epic Classes revolving around becoming a master wrestler or things like that. Might need to rejig the level 30 capstone ability to be something truly epic like "Create a formula for a powerful magic item/divine boon/grand master training" or some way for your character to live on. Hmmm.. Also rules for researching fighting techniques/arcane spells or quiet meditation and prayer for primeval blessings/divine prayers. Into the ideas bin those go.

JohnLynch wrote:

This is part of the reason for wanting utility powers and feats to occupy the same resource cost. It's easier to come up with utility powers rather than feats.

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Perhaps extreme strength feats where you can lift so much weight you could be considered super-human. Like lifting... ummm... cows.

I'd see this as a utility power rather than a feat (although again, potentially the same thing).

When I first heard of 3e use of the term feats it had me scratching my head.
The term "Feat" should be closer in meaning to Stunt or how the word power is used in 4e. The passive adjustment feats I think of as features.

Basically its a more in genre term for what 4e powers do. You could have Feats of Magic, Feats of Martial prowess...Athletic Feats (there is your utility power) and so on. Most magic in mythic/legendary inspirational material are not fast worked effects but rather rituals ... working magic fast is a feat of magic.

Much more comments coming later.

Garthanos wrote:

JohnLynch wrote:

 This is part of the reason for wanting utility powers and feats to occupy the same resource cost. It's easier to come up with utility powers rather than feats.

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Perhaps extreme strength feats where you can lift so much weight you could be considered super-human. Like lifting... ummm... cows.

I'd see this as a utility power rather than a feat (although again, potentially the same thing).

When I first heard of 3e use of the term feats it had me scratching my head.
The term "Feat" should be closer in meaning to Stunt or how the word power is used in 4e. The passive adjustment feats I think of as features.

Basically its a more in genre term for what 4e powers do. You could have Feats of Magic, Feats of Martial prowess...Athletic Feats (there is your utility power) and so on.  Most magic in mythic/legendary inspirational material are not fast worked effects but rather rituals ... working magic fast is a feat of magic.

Much more comments coming later.

In that case I suppose the meta-magic feats of the 3e days made sense.

JohnLynch wrote:

If you have a look at the feats in the document I've aimed to make them more interesting then just boosts in to hit or damage numbers. Some of the more interesting ones are:

• Ally's Sacrifice (Bloodmage Sorcerer): Damage an ally instead of yourself to deal extra damage when casting a spell
  
• Life Drain (Bloodmage Sorcerer): Gain temps when you attack someone as an augment ability - this could be better worded in the doc (wonder what campaign setting these two feats could be used in? *innocent whistle*)
  
• Arcane Duelist: A feat that allows arcane spells to be delivered with a weapon attack vs AC rather than an implement vs a NAD.
  
• Action Point feats: Use your action point to allow someone else to spend a heroic surge, get bonus damage for 1 round, make a new saving throw or regain the use of a daily power.
  
• Opportunistic Trip: Do less damage on an AoO and instead trip them, truly making you a trip monkey.
  
• Versatile Training: Get a new at-will power.
  
• Racial Powers: Gain a new racial power from another race (limited to certain races).
  

Then there's other feats such as Power Attack where you trade out some of your attack bonus for a boost to damage and Combat Expertise where you can trade out some of your attack bonus for AC. These have been carefully kept in check to make sure neither is a "well duh!" and instead provide a tactical choice for the player.

Some cool ideas always liked Bloodmage - and I like reflavoring it to death.... that spending hps can be like witches spending there Karma fending of the implication of Thricefold Returns for instance. Or channeling spell power through your body inducing a form of fatigue. Or actual blood price.

I commented about wanting Paragon Paths that began right away and shortly there after we saw themes... I think I will take responsibility for it.   

JohnLynch wrote:

That said I discovered, just like the D&D Next developers, that making feats that are interesting and offer more versatility rather than just a straight boost in power is hard. I've managed to do it with the feats provided. But thinking up new feats isn't easy. I've trawled through all 3 PHBs and some of the Power books looking for feats that are interesting but not a power boost (my favourite is the Arcane Duelist feat). This is part of the reason for wanting utility powers and feats to occupy the same resource cost. It's easier to come up with utility powers rather than feats.

Garthanos wrote:

It can not only be game world but character style which determines whether items or gifts or whatever are appropriate might make it part of the wish list as well. Ie my character might be be keeping his eyes open for rumors about a teacher who knows ability such and such.

Hadn't thought of that. Also a monk with a vow of poverty shouldn't be picking up magic items.. Hmm. Gives me some ideas on some new feats.

You thought of monk my first thought Paladin

JohnLynch wrote:

Garthanos wrote:

I like the bringing the item Daily costs in as part of the Heroic Surge system... much cleaner than 4e in that reguards.

Not actually what I'd originally intended (the use mechanic I was intending for just GMT/Boons). But such a good idea I'm going to steal it ;)I'd say give each class +2 heroic surges and then go for it. It should also help in higher levels in getting use out of your heroic surges (in Paragon tier I rarely used all of my healing surges in one session).

Seems like it could definitely work.

JohnLynch wrote:

Garthanos wrote:

they indeed mentioned items and likely races with more extreme impact and various other elements but they were able to optimize there way in to jumping 100 feet and making truly obnoxious numbers on the lifting capacity.

Yeah. What people say happens in 3.5e is different to what actually happened (you may not know but 3.5e has healing surges. They're just called wands of cure light wounds. Same mechanic except unlimited in use, different fluff).

Aware of that... its one of the commonalities of 3e and 4e among many others that raise eyebrows to certain posters on wotc forums who rally 1e to 3e in order to claim 4e paradigms should be rejected but what really makes me laugh at them are the fundamental differences betwix TSRDnD and WOTCDnD

JohnLynch wrote:

Garthanos wrote:

I was thinking with title like Gods and Heros - awakening divine epic attributes would actually be appropriate!!

Definitely. Could see some cool Epic Classes revolving around becoming a master wrestler or things like that. Might need to rejig the level 30 capstone ability to be something truly epic like "Create a formula for a powerful magic item/divine boon/grand master training" or some way for your character to live on. Hmmm.. Also rules for researching fighting techniques/arcane spells or quiet meditation and prayer for primeval blessings/divine prayers. Into the ideas bin those go.

I made up a feat so your character could create Oath Bound Blessings/Boons ... in essence the Warlord becomes the creator of Paladins and Shaman becomes the creators of Spirit Warriors. The latter can simply be Fighters or Barbarians with boons

Garthanos wrote:

When I first heard of 3e use of the term feats it had me scratching my head.
The term "Feat" should be closer in meaning to Stunt or how the word power is used in 4e. The passive adjustment feats I think of as features.

Basically its a more in genre term for what 4e powers do. You could have Feats of Magic, Feats of Martial prowess...Athletic Feats (there is your utility power) and so on.  Most magic in mythic/legendary inspirational material are not fast worked effects but rather rituals ... working magic fast is a feat of magic.

This makes perfect sense. Alas I think this ship has sailed after 3rd ed, 3.5e, Pathfinder, 4th ed, Essentials and countless clones all using feats to mean a particular thing.

Garthanos wrote:

You thought of monk my first thought Paladin

Ooh that's good. Here are some vow feats I came up with:

Vows Sidebar
Vows are a group of feats that grant you benefits in return for you willingly restricting yourself from certain activities. The supernatural force you swear this vow to could be the universe, a deity, an extraplanar creature, an organisation or a person. In return you are granted the associated benefit either as a supernatural force or from within yourself as you reach a higher level of enlightenment.

There may come a time when you feel you must forsake a vow. If you do so as part of retraining, then there are no penalties associated with forsaking this vow. However if you break it in the middle of tense situation then you immediately lose any benefit from this vow and cannot retrain it. This can be fixed by seeking penance at which point you get the benefit once more and can retrain the vow if you so wish. What sort of penance you must undertake is dependent on who you made the vow to, which vow you took and the tone of your campaign. This should be a fun endeavour for the player (if not the character) and the GM should offer guidance after your character either speaks with the individual you made the oath to, meditates, communes or prays.

Some vows grant a benefit once per challenge by spending a heroic surge. No matter how many vows you take, you can only spend a heroic surge to gain their benefit once per challenge. When you spend the heroic surge you can decide then which benefit you receive.
----
Vow of Abstinence: Trying to live a better life, you've made a vow to forsake all toxins such as alcohol or drugs including potions and elixirs. In return you may spend a heroic surge as an immediate action when you would be hit with an attack that deals poison damage or as a free action to reroll a failed saving throw against a poison.

Vow of Celibacy: Trying to live a better life, you've made a vow to forsake all intimdate dealings with other people. You may not engage in intimate relations or attempt to flirt or use someone's attraction for you to your own benefit. In return you may spend a heroic surge as an immediate action when you would be affected by a charm effect to cause the attacker to reroll their attack roll or as a free action to reroll your saving throw.

Vow of Charity: You vow to give willingly and frequently to the community. You do not necessarily need to forsake all worldly posessions. Instead you can donate a portion of your time or skill towards the community. You spend half of your spare time offering your skills or abilities free of charge to the community. In return once per challenge you may spend a heroic surge to reroll a failed diplomacy check.

Vow of Chivalry: You vow to be courteous to all people, protect the opposite sex and come to them in their hour of need. In return once per challenge you may spend a heroic surge and allow someone else to regain HP equal to half their wounded value.

Vow of Law: You vow to uphold the law and protect society by becoming it's champion. You must refuse to partake in activities that would break the law unless it was for the greater good. In return you can grant yourself or an ally within 30 ft a +2 bonus to AC as an augmentation power.

Vow of Loyalty: You swear allegiance to an organisation, family or supernatural force. Once per challenge you can spend a heroic surge as an immediate action. You may do anything that would normally cost a standard or less.

Vow of Pacifism: Trying to live a better life, you've taken a vow to forsake all violence. You still choose powers as usual. However you may not use any power that deals damage. Instead you may choose to use a power and simply refrain from using any portion that would require damage.

In return when make a skill check you may roll twice and take the highest result. In addition you can perform one of the following actions as a standard action:

• Grant yourself or an ally within 30 ft +2 to a defense.
  
• Grant yourself or an ally within 30 ft 12 temps (16 temps at level 11, 24 temps at level 21). These temps disappear after 5 minutes.
  
• Grant yourself or an ally within 30 ft a new saving throw
  
• Expend a once per challenge power or a daily power to allow yourself or an ally within 30 ft to use a heroic surge and regain HP equal to half their wounded value.
  

Vow of Poverty: Trying to live a better life, you've taken a vow forsaking all worldly posessions. You may own no weapons or armour. Nor can you use or own any item that is worth more than 1gp in value. Instead your posessions may simply include: plain clothes (such as a robe), simple sandals and a single token from your life before you took this vow worth no more than 50 gp.

In return you once per challenge (twice at level 11 and three times at level 21) you may use a heroic surge to perform one of the following actions:

• Reroll a saving throw, attack roll or skill check
  
• Gain a second standard action for this turn
  
• Regain HP equal to half your wounded value.
  

Vow of Silence: Trying to live a better life, you've taken a vow of silence, refusing to speak or make any loud noise, although you may still communicate through silent gestures or vy writing things down. In return you may always roll twice when making a stealth check and take the highest result.

Vow of Truth
Pre-requisite: Trained in bluff

Trying to live a better life, you've taken a vow to forsake all lies and deceit. You may not knowingly tell a lie or deliberately mislead someone. In return you may spend a heroic surge once per challenge to determine if someone just lied to you.

Vow of Vengeance: You swear vengeance against a specific person or organisation. You receive a +2 attack bonus against agents of that person or organisation.

Forsaken Vow
Pre-requisite: A vow feat that you are no longer receiving the benefit of.

Benefit: You receive some of the following benefits, depending on the vows you've broken:

• Abstinence: Drinking to excess, you do not receive a hang over the next morning nor can you become addicted to a substance.
  
• Celibacy: You see nothing special in intimate relations and do not shy from using it to your benefit. You gain a +2 bonus to diplomacy or bluff checks against someone who is attracted to you.
  
• Charity: Caring naught for society, you may halve the cost of goods and services by making an intimidate check of DC 20 (+1 per 100gp value of the good or service).
  
• Chivalry: Caring nothing for society's etiquette, you gain a +2 feat bonus to intimidate or diplomacy checks when being confrontational and rude.
  
• Law: You care nothing for the law. You may make untrained thievery checks with a +2 bonus.
  
• Loyalty: You're selfish and care only for yourself, granting you a +2 feat bonus to diplomacy checks when only you benefit from the outcome of the check.
  
• Pacifism: Embracing violence, you gain a +2 bonus to initiative checks.
  
• Poverty: You covet wealth and can accurately determine the value of an item by making a DC 15 check using your int modifier and a +5 bonus.
  
• Silence: You can wake someone up as a free action without them needing to roll a perception check.
  
• Truth: You gain a +2 bonus to untrained bluff checks.
  
• Vengeance: You gain a +2 attack bonus on the first attack against someone you had convinced was your ally.
  

If you perform a penance and regain the benefit of a vow you can no longer use the associated benefit. This feat may be retrained using the standard retraining rules.
----
These are a mixture of Paladin Oaths and Monk vows. However they're available to anyone and have been made to cover a wide variety of circumstances.

They're intended to help boost up roleplaying and facilitate the GM weaving interesting adventures for his/her PCs.  They can also help offer benefits for playing a particular alignment without enforcing alignment mechanics on a particular class or player (even the vow of law doesn't technically require a lawful alignment). Penance is largely left in the hands of the GM with the expectation it moves the story along and enrichens it.

The Forsaken Vow is intended to offer a side-benefit for a character who has organically broken a vow. I didn't want to make it TOO powerful because I didn't want a scenario where all thieves would take Vow of Law and then Forsaken Vow.

Well I'll go out on a limb here since it was already brought up... What are you doing about alignment?

*Hides in bomb shelter*   

Is it going to remain similar to 4e's, go back to old D&D alignment, be completely new and rebooted, or just left out as an optional thing (this would be my preferred one)?

--- (Beware. I'm just spit-balling at this point)

Also I feel like every class (or character, maybe not limited to class) should have something similar in spirit to the "vows". I personally like a few RP/non-combat options mixed in with character creation beyond the skills, and the typically combat centered themes.

I know many people do not like rules for out of combat experiences but I feel like there is room for some in 4e. Perhaps a more complete ruleset on Rituals and Ritual Research. Some cool new skill utility powers that aren't combat centered. Expanded backgrounds and themes. Properly fleshed out backgrounds and themes could fix this problem easily without even having to change the classes features around. Though if your adding more class features you could add things that could make classes a little more interesting outside of combat and make them standout from one another a tad bit better.

You could even look at 13th Age's class features and talents for example if you're down for creating a few more to stand beside the classic 4e ones.

There are vows that I think of as "Honorable Fighter"  vows... for instance you have a vow against using ranged weaponry. A vow against striking the fallen, A vow against the use of poison.

Like your thoughts each vow has a boon associated with them. (The primary reason for Vows is really just to create a gain and loss condition like a magic item which can be stolen.). So the association is actually loose... someone my vow chastity to gain a purifying touch to remove poison. (instead of the vow against use of poison). ;-0 reminder to self disads never "really" balance they are there for the flavor of it.

Some character being an Oath binder is like being an enchanter. In 4e the Wizard had Rituals by default ... Warlords and Shamans it seems to might have this.

Some vows might be related to Totems call em Geasa if you want a different word ... so I vow against the eating of Cat and can there after land on my feat after any fall.

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Also I feel like every class (or character, maybe not limited to class) should have something similar in spirit to the "vows". I personally like a few RP/non-combat options mixed in with character creation beyond the skills, and the typically combat centered themes.

Vows and Geasa as I think of them are primarily about flavor handles for Boons and Blessings.

The other Element from the Alternate Rewards was Grandmaster Training

These are maintained by taking up a regima... some effects of a Regima might be things like needing an extra hour of sleep... or spending an hour on the Kata. ... regima maintian GMT just like vows maintain Boons/Blessings.