STILL Not Dead (Terrors & Tactics Updade)

I’m always up for a game of reductionism, and you’ve sparked a wall of text.

I agree with your conclusions on the classes and backgrounds. The courtier and noble condensing into the aristocrat is, like you said, the only really viable one. Splitting the artisan is laughable as you said, and the entertainer/outlaw merger would only work in a setting based on Medieval Europe, which your setting has strayed from immensely.

The empowered especially can't be scrapped, since that would also leave the enhancements solely under the benedictor's purview, and those are too generic and too useful to be gated behind a single class like that. It would be like the captain hogging all the clever tricks. Casters can't be cut any further than they are - any further and you're going to be hitting marrow.

Skilled class are mostly the same way - the acrobat's role as the melee martial controller is something that 4e only somewhat approached, and never officially. Look at the demand for martial controllers in general during that edition's lifespan. If anything, the acrobat's presence as an out-of-the-box melee martial controller is a selling point with your system.

Beastmaster is the only one that could be cut and reworked into a utility. The trick here is finding a way for the beastmaster to interact with the class features without breaking anything. Certain classes lend themselves to it more than others: the Acrobat and Skirmisher could make the beast part of their flurry of blows and volleys, the skirmisher is already laid out like you said, the captain, sidekick, and brigand could have the beast use your clever tricks, the sentinel and abjurer could use the beast as part of their reaction, the benedictor, empowered, and summoner could use the beast as part of their enhancements and aspects. The real tricky classes are the maledictor, interdictor, defender, and ravager. The ravager especially is a mechanically independent class.

The species are good where they are, as you said, but there is room to play the reductionist game. As you stated, elves and gnomes both reincarnate at death and they have the Earthbound trait. The light element also fills the role of the air/fire hybrid completing the quartet of hybrid elementals; again, as you said. Gnomes could just be like Brownies, with the Small trait and fluff that marks them as eternal children. I also like your idea of the elven gods being really old and powerful avatars, which would make them resemble 4e's archfey or mythical fairy royalty like Oberon, Titania, or Mab. The presence of these elder avatars could also further explain both why El-Phara got such a strong start, and why the caste system still has an iron grip on them - the founders were practically demigods, and they're still there. They wouldn't be the only explanation, and anybody who cacked the elder elves thinking that it would be an easy solution to El-Phara would find themselves deeply disappointed as the elder elves' middle management put themselves in charge and continued the same policies.
In addition, the idea of El-Phara being a kingdom founded by avatars also answers the question of why avatars never established nations of their own the way that demons did (and elves did in your current canon).

If nothing else, the avatar could use a light elemental option to fill air/fire gap.

As for the malfeans themselves, I would give them a separate shadow echo, since your idea of shadow and undeath having a demonic influence to them is brilliant. It makes undead a demonic presence (with demons being tethered to corpses), and it further ties undead to the Demon Emperor, the creator of the first undead.

Something else to consider is the Fetches. Instead of merging them into Malfeans, you could instead merge them into Avatars via the addition of a shadow avatar source. This could be justified in fluff by the primal power of the night, and of Grey Huntress's presence as the shadow of death. Fetches also share that commonality of the Earthbound trait and reincarnation at death. Their wandering clan structure not only fits in with the idea of avatars as outsiders in human society, their crusade against the undead could also be a symbolic continuation of the spirits' war against the demons (I'll get back to the Malfeans and the demons in a minute).

The fetches and elves could be a second generation of avatars cast down to the mortal realm, only unlike the first generation they weren't exiled by their kin. The exilers themselves were ripped out of their spiritual homes by the Cataclysm, and the avatars born in the time since have no idea which generation they were part of.

Finally, there's the astral and primal paths, and their patrons. I would argue that you could merge them and keep the Astral gods, if you broaden the definition of the primal spirit to something more like elemental spirits (your remark about the primal spirits being like elemental angels struck a chord). Some spirits would be elemental and nature-themed, while others would be more spirits representing concepts of the mind. This could also work to solve your demon classification problem and how guys like the gallu, horrid mass, absorber, and entropos don’t fit into the standard elemental framework.

If you’re looking to keep the distinction between the astral gods and the primal spirits, perhaps they had a schism during the First Empire. The primal spirits may have merely turned away from the men of the First Empire, but a faction of spirits led by what would become the astral gods instead opted to influence things more directly. This could cause the beastmen (and subsequently the humans) to switch from worshiping one set of spirits to another.

There’s also a lot of overlap between the astral and primal paths themselves, since they both work by making arrangements with spiritual entities. The Covenant itself could be said to be a kind of pact like what astral casters make with the astral gods. The fact that you call the various primal focus options patron spirits (like the patron of a warlock pact in 4e) demonstrates this.

You could either refluff the astral and primal paths to be both spiritual paths in general, like how the wizard and gadgeteer are both arcane paths, or you could condense the astral path’s benefits (implement proficiencies, astral energy) into a pact-based third spiritual connection to go alongside the covenant spirits and sorcery. The main thing to do in that second case would be to set the implement attack stat to Wits or Presence and alter the Cunning Spirit focus option to compensate (and work with the Potent spirit to allow for full Strength or medium armor proficiency).

These are just ideas that came as I was writing, and how for a long time I’ve been thinking about how in 4e, the divine classes, warlocks, sorcerers, and primal classes had a lot of fluff overlap. This is your baby, though.

So, small update after looking at the two possible elements I’d mentioned as starting to investigate (I’ll respond to your observations tomorrow... I started writing all this before you’d responded).

First, merging Courtier and Noble isn’t actually as practical as I thought. Of two dozen available utilities each, they share only five and the skill lists don’t line up all that well either. The Courtier is basically the social schemer, more akin to Tyrion or Cersei. The Noble by contrast has far more features that allow for inspiring others and being competent on the battlefield; more an Aragorn or Jon Snow type.

The only thing that MIGHT be warranted is looking at the names because really there’s no reason the Courtier couldn’t be a less physically adept noble (the rank not the background) or the Noble a more honorable and martially adept courtier (the profession).

But combining them would either require;

A) the merged background to have twice the options of the other backgrounds to cover the two concepts.

B) stripping out about a dozen utilities from each to keep the numbers in line with the other backgrounds.

C) turn “noble” into a sub-category like cantrips, primal utilities and physical adept utilities and give courtiers, military and maybe religious the option to pick them.

D) Leave them the heck alone... this is the option I’m currently going with.

* * * * *

Beastmaster on the other hand looks much more promising. Loyal Steed provides everything the Beastmaster’s companion does except for damage dealt until level 8 (when the class companion gains another exotic ability) and even then, the class comp’s non-damage advantage is marginal.

As you stated, the main thing needed to fully replace the Beastmaster class the way the Shift Form option replaced the Shifter/Warden would be a way to tie your role to it, maybe even as specific as class specific adjustments.

So a slayer like the skirmisher could use the beast for its damage feature while a controller like the acrobat could use the beast for its control, etc. The trick is going to be making sure it’s as useful for a ravager or maledictor or a sharpshooter or an interdictor or a summoner.

The current option for controllers is that if the beast hits with its attack, the controller gets to inflict a class minor action on the target as a free action. Essentially, you give up your autohit effect for an attack that deals both damage and the effect, but only if it hits. The beast creates an opening for you to get a hit in along with commanding the beast to attack.

This works for acrobats, sharpshooters and interdictors, but gets a bit iffy with the summoner because it’s minor actions are aspects attached to its summoned ally. In fact, the summoner is probably the worst fit for a beast companion (or any companion for that matter).

The enablers could probably use a similar approach; trade a reliable buff for the chance to both deal damage and get the buff with the same action.

The same goes for the brigand, ravager, empowered or maledictor too; use your clever trick or oath or minor spell without error or take the riskier option that adds even more damage if they succeed.

I suppose it could work like that for the skirmisher too, but it’s minor action isn’t an autohit so the odds get funky if you go that way with it. My preference for it would be to just buff the beast’s damage to the point it becomes an alternate weapon choice for the skirmisher.

The really tricky ones are going to be the guardians, because the beast doesn’t really have the Edge or defenses to play a tank on their own so you don’t want them actually taunting things. Buffing the beast’s free strikes to help hinder movement/ranged attacks beyond the guardian’s reach is an obvious start, but guardian minor actions for taunting really don’t mix well with attacks because you taunting the target when its the beast attacking it doesn’t feel as intuitive as a controller, enabler or slayer taking the opportunity granted by the beast’s distraction.

Something that the defender and sentinel could do is have the beast act as the retaliation, like you were suggesting with improving their free strikes. The guardian would impose the taunt itself on its turn, and the beast would be the off-turn response. That may be all they need, since half the guardian's role fulfillment occurs on other peoples' turns. The abjurer, meanwhile, could work like the interdictor/maledictor/etc, trading certainty for more damage.

The summoner, meanwhile, could give the aspects to the beast. What you could do is rework the summoner to work off of either summoned creatures or creatures they control. For casters with beast companions instead of summoned allies, the beast could replace the summoned ally. In this case, the summoner could be renamed the binder or something like that.

I’m actually going to take advantage of the quote feature for once because it’s easier to reference;

Honorbound wrote:

the entertainer/outlaw merger would only work in a setting based on Medieval Europe, which your setting has strayed from immensely.

The notion of actors/entertainers as low-class/semi-criminal was actually pretty widespread (in Japan the Kabuki were literally prostitutes... their performances were essentially auditions for the patrons) until modern times, but your point stands.

Even more than just Old Praetoria deviating from default European assumptions though, the core rules need to be a flexible tool kit with options to cover cultures from across the planet or even other settings entirely.

It’s a lot easier to say “In this culture entertainers are considered on par with low-lifes and criminals” than it would be to try and split off a respected entertainer (or subset of entertainers like ballad singers and poets vs. actors and circus performers) from an Outsider background.

Honorbound wrote:

Skilled class are mostly the same way - the acrobat's role as the melee martial controller is something that 4e only somewhat approached, and never officially. Look at the demand for martial controllers in general during that edition's lifespan. If anything, the acrobat's presence as an out-of-the-box melee martial controller is a selling point with your system.

Out of the box obviousness is the reason Sidekick remains a distinct class as well. One of my newer playtesters (whose only other familiarity was 5e) said they’d never seen a character concept like the sidekick before and having it just be a “build” of the captain means it would be something a lot of people would never even come up with on their own.

*Side-bar: futzing with the beast companion’s class assistance ability has me thinking that an additional option for the sidekick to really make it stand apart from the captain would be a “create minor opening” ability... the sidekick spends a minor action to give an ally a free action use of one of their own minor actions. For balance I’d probably drop them back to just two clever tricks, but I think the tactical boost of that option would absolutely make up for it.*

That said, I’ll admit that my own case for dropping the acrobat is nagging me precisely because of how close the skirmisher can get to matching its performance with added damage on top. In some ways the Skirmisher is in the same boat as the Empowered in that its almost a hybrid role (because the auras have some control and a bit of buffing depending on which is chosen). It’s technically a slayer, but with the right stances after level 5 it can act as a controller or guardian whenever it’s attacks connect.

I’m not sure if this means the acrobat needs to be buffed, the skirmisher needs to be nerfed or if the two should be merged somehow (ex. entirely remove the ability to add stances to the skirmisher’s minor action attack, but add the flurry option so it can do damage or control but not both at once), but the fact that the acrobat was so relatively easy for me to consider cutting means some work is needed somewhere.

Honorbound wrote:

Beastmaster is the only one that could be cut and reworked into a utility. The trick here is finding a way for the beastmaster to interact with the class features without breaking anything.

Right now the option that works for just about every class is “spend your minor action on the beast’s attack, if it hits, use a class minor action as a free action. Controllers use a minor control or enlarge an attack, Enablers use their buff and heal option, Sentinels and Abjurers taunt/ward targets, Brigands use a clever trick that also buffs their main action attack, Ravagers use their mark, Empowered use an enhancement or aspect minor action and Maledictors use a minor spell.

It turns out even the Summoner works with the beast companion because it’s Summoned Ally works off its main action while the Beast Companion works off the minor action. The Ally attacks (main), the Beast attacks (minor) and if it hits the Ally uses its aspect minor action (free).

The problem classes for me are really the Defender and Skirmisher.

The Defender’s problem is that because their taunt is an aura and their minor actions just pull targets in or let the defender better hold their ground, what the beast could trigger is rather situational. If the defender is already in melee range with its targets and it’s opponents aren’t using forced movement, it’s not really helping the Defender to trigger those class abilities on a hit the way Cover Fire or Wards need to be reapplied.

The Skirmisher’s problem has already been mentioned, but to restate, just about every other class minor action benefit is automatic. You apply a condition to a target (yourself, an ally or enemy) without a check. The Skirmisher is the only class whose minor action requires a check. That’s why it can do full damage with a hit instead of Focus+level autohit damage.

And it’s pretty cruddy to gamble on being able to take another gamble (the beast will miss half the time and then half the time it hits your extra attack ends up missing too).

We’ve also already discussed the Skirmisher solution, but for completeness sake; make the beast attack on par with the minor action attack (the beast’s own special abilities provide the edge over a basic skirmisher attack).

What I’m currently thinking for the Defender though is to have the Beast take a bit more after it’s master. It’s free strikes get the same hit and damage bonus as a defender (Focus+level extra damage puts the beast in line with a defender’s free strike damage) and it can add the bonus from barding to all its defenses the same way guardians can with shields. While it lacks the superior lockdown of defender itself, being a mobile zone that denies non-shifting movement and ranged attacks with exceptionally painful free strikes while being harder to hit (but without the incentive to attack it over softer targets because it’s not taunting you) is in line with aiding a Defender in what they do.

Honorbound wrote:

The species are good where they are, as you said, but there is room to play the reductionist game. As you stated, elves and gnomes both reincarnate at death and they have the Earthbound trait. The light element also fills the role of the air/fire hybrid completing the quartet of hybrid elementals; again, as you said.

Actually only elves have the Earthbound trait. Gnomes don’t... which probably annoys the Elves to know end because Gnomes can go home whenever they want and stay however long they want; they just don’t because home is BORING and they’d rather have adventures here.

Regardless, Light to me is indeed the fourth hybrid element, but there’s a reason I reason I left it out when I could have easily included it (it wasn’t an accident or oversight); because its absence breaks the neat symmetry of the world and keeps everything from being able to be wrapped up in a neat bow.

What happened to the Light? Were they entirely wiped out in the Demon War? Did every last one of them Fall along with Lightbringer? Did none of them fail in courage and thus there are no light avatars? Did they become something else (like the Astral Gods)?

In short, it’s absence creates mysteries that can be explored and keeps an easy “This is the one objective truth” answer from making the world so black and white.

Honorbound wrote:

I also like your idea of the elven gods being really old and powerful avatars, which would make them resemble 4e's archfey or mythical fairy royalty like Oberon, Titania, or Mab.

I like the gist of it too... I’m just not sure I like the neat ontological bow it wraps everything in the setting up with though. There’s nothing stopping the Elven Gods (or at least their aspects) from having been dragged into the mortal world and made Earthbound along with their Elven servants though. THAT is something definitely worth exploring.

Honorbound wrote:

In addition, the idea of El-Phara being a kingdom founded by avatars also answers the question of why avatars never established nations of their own the way that demons did (and elves did in your current canon).

The current canon reason the Avatars never established large nations is that they just don’t have the numbers for it.

The demons pulled it off because humans were a bunch of disparate hunter-gatherer tribes (total worldwide population of just 4-6 million based on Earth’s pre-agricultural Neolithic population) before they showed up and enslaved them. Even with a population that small they couldn’t manage all the humans themselves so they bred the malfeans to be their taskmasters.

For comparison, medieval England alone had a population of about 4-5 million people. If we presume;

A) the demon numbers were on par with the number of English nobles.
B) the Avatar numbers are on par with the demons (one-third/one-third/one-third split between loyal/rebel/cowards).
C) the Avatar population can’t grow because of the reincarnation limit.

If those are true then the GLOBAL number of avatars is probably only 20-40,000. There might be a couple hundred in the Old Praetoria region total (that’s pretty high density, but I’m presuming the density is way below normal in other places like the Blood Wastes and other Cataclysm-blasted regions largely devoid of life).

Players get to play avatars not because they’re common, but because pretty much every avatar is an adventurer-tier creature (i.e. only 1-in-1000 humans is a standard or elite opponent; every avatar is a standard or better opponent and some are even champion-tier).

Honorbound wrote:

It makes undead a demonic presence (with demons being tethered to corpses), and it further ties undead to the Demon Emperor, the creator of the first undead.

This is the flip-side of the neat little bow. As cosmologically satisfying as everything fitting neatly onto a great wheel/grid would be... I think having things not quite fit provides more game fodder and feels more “real” in a sense.

One of the great truths of life is that it often doesn’t entirely make sense. There is no working theory of life, the universe and everything that doesn’t have holes.

I think one of the reasons the undead work as a concept is in part that they don’t fit cleanly into the world. Demons are just broken primal spirits... it may be an echo, but it’s still tied to one of the fundamental elements of Creation. Embers, brine, dust and even miasmas can be found in the world.

The undead are something completely alien and that makes them more terrible than the demons in some ways. Demons can still create things (even if those things are only created to corrupt and destroy). The undead cannot. They cannot gather around hearth fires or work forges or bear the light of day; all that they possess is stolen from the living... just as they steal the lives of the living to fuel themselves.

And if it’s true that the Undead are the creations of the Demon Emperor then it also follows that the Emperor has become something other than a demon itself. The demons want back into Creation because they long for the primal energies of the mortal world. But Lightbringer so despised the light of the Source that he severed his connection to it entirely; becoming the very essence of Undeath itself.

*Side-bar: I’ve been thinking about my demons that don’t quite fit the elemental echoes and although it’s a bit unorthodox, I’m thinking perhaps instead of having an Abyssal origin, they should instead be creatures of Shadow... things that exist entirely outside the light or even the echoes of the Source... things that break reality by their presence, but cannot abide the light of day. Perhaps they are the embodied dreams of the Demon Emperor itself, bubbling up from the depths of the Shadow World and into the darkest corners of the Mortal World where they wait to prey upon the unwary?*

Honorbound wrote:

Finally, there's the astral and primal paths, and their patrons. I would argue that you could merge them and keep the Astral gods, if you broaden the definition of the primal spirit to something more like elemental spirits (your remark about the primal spirits being like elemental angels struck a chord).

The problem there is that my conception of the Primal Spirits and Covenant completely falls apart without the Source/Great Spirit at its heart.

The Primal Spirits aren’t alternate gods to the Astral Gods... they’re the servants of One God. The Covenant isn’t with the Primal Spirits... it’s with the One God (the primal spirits are merely the implements through which the One God fulfills the Covenant).

The Astral Gods cannot be primal spirits because unfallen primal spirits would never allow themselves to be worshipped.

The Primal Path is Monotheistic. It cannot become polytheistic and still be what I need it to be. I need it be something my very Christian sister and brother-in-law would be comfortable letting my niece play. I need it to be something all the very devout Christian families around me would be comfortable with their kids playing.

Truthfully, I’ve NEVER been particularly comfortable with the polytheistic bent of most D&D settings. It’s just a game, but there are times I feel like it’s asking you to put things before God. It’s why I typically play “Atheistic” (in the sense that the “gods” are just very powerful beings, not the origin of morality) characters in most campaigns and why I refuse to play in the Forgotten Realms because it’s underlying cosmology is downright hostile to not embracing its brand of polytheism (to the point I consider embracing undeath (or some other form of non-divine immortality) and actively attempting to murder the gods in the FR setting to be the only morally good path available).

One of my favorite parts of 4E was how it finally broke the chains on healing magic being near exclusively tied to the worship of polytheistic gods. I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a Divine Source PC in any 4E game in my area; Every healer we ever had was a Bard, Artificer or Warlord. We were finally able to play the game without this problematic but required by the game math element hanging over us.

Frankly, the Astral gods are my concession to traditional D&D settings and the desire to let the system be able to emulate every aspect of D&D in terms of races and classes. I’ve come to appreciate them because they help create the same sort of uncertainty the real world has... where you have to take many things on faith. I avoid explicit answers about the truth of the supernatural world because I think GMs being free to decide the specifics of the truth for their campaigns themselves makes it a better game (because a game is not a theology tract).

But it’s no accident that Warden Blackthorne and three-quarters of the signature characters on the Player’s Guide cover are members of the Old Faith (and the fourth is a Han Solo style agnostic). Because that’s where my heart is.

I may muddy the waters, but I will never actually undermine the ability for the Covenant take on the cosmology to be true.

Honorbound wrote:

The fact that you call the various primal focus options patron spirits (like the patron of a warlock pact in 4e) demonstrates this.

Actually, I meant the term more in line with a Patron Saint and the patron spirit is intended to more a guardian angel/spirit guide, not an entity to be worshipped. In the case of Erin’yi, her description includes that her patron spirit is in fact her mother’s spirit watching over her and guided her to swear to the Covenant between Men and the Great Spirit.

Likewise, I chose to call it the Covenant to specifically invoke the covenant between God and Abraham and between God and his people after the Exodus.

The Old Faith may have some of the trappings of traditionally pagan religions with its nature/barbarian ties, but that’s because I enjoy flipping expectations on their heads (also malfeans as the truest devotees of the Faith), because it makes people think.

Flipping expectations is also why the Old Faith is the misunderstood underdog instead of the primary faith that rules over all others. I’ve checked out some more Christian-themed rpgs over the years and they always fall flat with their incessant need for their faith to be the One True All-Beloved Establishment religion of the world.

My reply to them would be two-fold. First, “Have you read any actual history books? The history of Christianity and Judaism before it is practically synonymous with the history of persecution and underdogs.”

Second, “if you want something to be embraced as cool in an rpg, don’t make it the all beloved Establishment... make it the persecuted outcast and underdog.”

And that’s the Old Faith my setting; the underdog and often persecuted religion of outcasts. Where Blackthorne became First Warden in spite of his conversion to the Old Faith rather than because of it. One whose victories are measured by “Yay! We’re not being enslaved and tortured for our beliefs” and “We have freedom of religion in the Free Cities so you can even follow that backwards Old Faith if that’s your bag.”

As to Warlocks, I do have them and they’re tied into the Pacts of the Astral Path. They’re someone who formed a pact with a (often dark) astral power and then went back on their agreement (causing them to be hunted by those loyal to the astral power since the power granted is the recipient’s for life).

Chris24601 wrote:

I’m actually going to take advantage of the quote feature for once because it’s easier to reference;
The notion of actors/entertainers as low-class/semi-criminal was actually pretty widespread (in Japan the Kabuki were literally prostitutes... their performances were essentially auditions for the patrons) until modern times, but your point stands.

I did not know that about the kabuki. I knew that there was significant association of geisha with prostitution, but the kabuki thing was new. It really puts a new spin on calling something kabuki theater.

Chris24601 wrote:

Even more than just Old Praetoria deviating from default European assumptions though, the core rules need to be a flexible tool kit with options to cover cultures from across the planet or even other settings entirely.

It’s a lot easier to say “In this culture entertainers are considered on par with low-lifes and criminals” than it would be to try and split off a respected entertainer (or subset of entertainers like ballad singers and poets vs. actors and circus performers) from an Outsider background.

That's the beauty of the 4e-style mechanics first, mutable fluff approach. You can tailor that stuff to your campaign setting's needs.

Chris24601 wrote:

Out of the box obviousness is the reason Sidekick remains a distinct class as well. One of my newer playtesters (whose only other familiarity was 5e) said they’d never seen a character concept like the sidekick before and having it just be a “build” of the captain means it would be something a lot of people would never even come up with on their own.

*Side-bar: futzing with the beast companion’s class assistance ability has me thinking that an additional option for the sidekick to really make it stand apart from the captain would be a “create minor opening” ability... the sidekick spends a minor action to give an ally a free action use of one of their own minor actions. For balance I’d probably drop them back to just two clever tricks, but I think the tactical boost of that option would absolutely make up for it.*

I like the new role thing you're proposing with the sidekick - it really emphasizes their shtick beyond just allowing extra attacks. It's something that the captain can't do even if they take the ally attack.

Chris24601 wrote:

That said, I’ll admit that my own case for dropping the acrobat is nagging me precisely because of how close the skirmisher can get to matching its performance with added damage on top. In some ways the Skirmisher is in the same boat as the Empowered in that its almost a hybrid role (because the auras have some control and a bit of buffing depending on which is chosen). It’s technically a slayer, but with the right stances after level 5 it can act as a controller or guardian whenever it’s attacks connect.

I’m not sure if this means the acrobat needs to be buffed, the skirmisher needs to be nerfed or if the two should be merged somehow (ex. entirely remove the ability to add stances to the skirmisher’s minor action attack, but add the flurry option so it can do damage or control but not both at once), but the fact that the acrobat was so relatively easy for me to consider cutting means some work is needed somewhere.

What you could do with the skirmisher in order to let it keep some stance utility for its rapid attack is to scrap the original level 10 benefit and just let it use stances with the rapid attack at level 10. It could gain some controller/guardian utility later on, but it wouldn't be able to control like a dedicated acrobat. The only reason that I don't suggest scrapping that feature altogether is to give the player some kind of improvement with rapid attack.

Chris24601 wrote:

Right now the option that works for just about every class is “spend your minor action on the beast’s attack, if it hits, use a class minor action as a free action. Controllers use a minor control or enlarge an attack, Enablers use their buff and heal option, Sentinels and Abjurers taunt/ward targets, Brigands use a clever trick that also buffs their main action attack, Ravagers use their mark, Empowered use an enhancement or aspect minor action and Maledictors use a minor spell.

It turns out even the Summoner works with the beast companion because it’s Summoned Ally works off its main action while the Beast Companion works off the minor action. The Ally attacks (main), the Beast attacks (minor) and if it hits the Ally uses its aspect minor action (free).

The problem classes for me are really the Defender and Skirmisher.

The Defender’s problem is that because their taunt is an aura and their minor actions just pull targets in or let the defender better hold their ground, what the beast could trigger is rather situational. If the defender is already in melee range with its targets and it’s opponents aren’t using forced movement, it’s not really helping the Defender to trigger those class abilities on a hit the way Cover Fire or Wards need to be reapplied.

The Skirmisher’s problem has already been mentioned, but to restate, just about every other class minor action benefit is automatic. You apply a condition to a target (yourself, an ally or enemy) without a check. The Skirmisher is the only class whose minor action requires a check. That’s why it can do full damage with a hit instead of Focus+level autohit damage.

And it’s pretty cruddy to gamble on being able to take another gamble (the beast will miss half the time and then half the time it hits your extra attack ends up missing too).

We’ve also already discussed the Skirmisher solution, but for completeness sake; make the beast attack on par with the minor action attack (the beast’s own special abilities provide the edge over a basic skirmisher attack).

What I’m currently thinking for the Defender though is to have the Beast take a bit more after it’s master. It’s free strikes get the same hit and damage bonus as a defender (Focus+level extra damage puts the beast in line with a defender’s free strike damage) and it can add the bonus from barding to all its defenses the same way guardians can with shields. While it lacks the superior lockdown of defender itself, being a mobile zone that denies non-shifting movement and ranged attacks with exceptionally painful free strikes while being harder to hit (but without the incentive to attack it over softer targets because it’s not taunting you) is in line with aiding a Defender in what they do.

Your summoner idea works a lot better than what I was thinking, and the skirmisher beast companion is workable as well. I don't have any alternative to the defender beastmaster idea you're proposing. I do like the image of the summoner having a bear companion, summoning a bear, and then taking the shifter utility to turn into a bear. It's the return of the ursine swarm!

Chris24601 wrote:

Actually only elves have the Earthbound trait. Gnomes don’t... which probably annoys the Elves to know end because Gnomes can go home whenever they want and stay however long they want; they just don’t because home is BORING and they’d rather have adventures here.

I didn't know that because I haven't been reading the gnome's entry thoroughly enough, but that is hysterical. I can imagine a particularly impish gnome screwing with an uptight group of elves with that - "I can go home and you can't - try and catch me there, sucker!"

Chris24601 wrote:

Regardless, Light to me is indeed the fourth hybrid element, but there’s a reason I reason I left it out when I could have easily included it (it wasn’t an accident or oversight); because its absence breaks the neat symmetry of the world and keeps everything from being able to be wrapped up in a neat bow.

What happened to the Light? Were they entirely wiped out in the Demon War? Did every last one of them Fall along with Lightbringer? Did none of them fail in courage and thus there are no light avatars? Did they become something else (like the Astral Gods)?

In short, it’s absence creates mysteries that can be explored and keeps an easy “This is the one objective truth” answer from making the world so black and white.

You know what? I like the ambiguity of this better than I do putting in a light avatar option. It raises some very important questions about what exactly went down in the war in heaven.

Chris24601 wrote:

I like the gist of it too... I’m just not sure I like the neat ontological bow it wraps everything in the setting up with though. There’s nothing stopping the Elven Gods (or at least their aspects) from having been dragged into the mortal world and made Earthbound along with their Elven servants though. THAT is something definitely worth exploring.

You're right, that is worth exploring.

Chris24601 wrote:

The current canon reason the Avatars never established large nations is that they just don’t have the numbers for it.

The demons pulled it off because humans were a bunch of disparate hunter-gatherer tribes (total worldwide population of just 4-6 million based on Earth’s pre-agricultural Neolithic population) before they showed up and enslaved them. Even with a population that small they couldn’t manage all the humans themselves so they bred the malfeans to be their taskmasters.

For comparison, medieval England alone had a population of about 4-5 million people. If we presume;

A) the demon numbers were on par with the number of English nobles.
B) the Avatar numbers are on par with the demons (one-third/one-third/one-third split between loyal/rebel/cowards).
C) the Avatar population can’t grow because of the reincarnation limit.

If those are true then the GLOBAL number of avatars is probably only 20-40,000. There might be a couple hundred in the Old Praetoria region total (that’s pretty high density, but I’m presuming the density is way below normal in other places like the Blood Wastes and other Cataclysm-blasted regions largely devoid of life).

Players get to play avatars not because they’re common, but because pretty much every avatar is an adventurer-tier creature (i.e. only 1-in-1000 humans is a standard or elite opponent; every avatar is a standard or better opponent and some are even champion-tier).

I wasn't thinking about the numbers. When I think of the war in heaven and the loyal vs fallen angels, I'm thinking that the numbers on all sides are much greater, infinite even. It was a fallacious assumption, both because infinity divided by anything is still infinity, and because the demons saw the need to breed malfeans as taskmasters instead of making the lowest demons do it.

Chris24601 wrote:

This is the flip-side of the neat little bow. As cosmologically satisfying as everything fitting neatly onto a great wheel/grid would be... I think having things not quite fit provides more game fodder and feels more “real” in a sense.

One of the great truths of life is that it often doesn’t entirely make sense. There is no working theory of life, the universe and everything that doesn’t have holes.

I think one of the reasons the undead work as a concept is in part that they don’t fit cleanly into the world. Demons are just broken primal spirits... it may be an echo, but it’s still tied to one of the fundamental elements of Creation. Embers, brine, dust and even miasmas can be found in the world.

The undead are something completely alien and that makes them more terrible than the demons in some ways. Demons can still create things (even if those things are only created to corrupt and destroy). The undead cannot. They cannot gather around hearth fires or work forges or bear the light of day; all that they possess is stolen from the living... just as they steal the lives of the living to fuel themselves.

And if it’s true that the Undead are the creations of the Demon Emperor then it also follows that the Emperor has become something other than a demon itself. The demons want back into Creation because they long for the primal energies of the mortal world. But Lightbringer so despised the light of the Source that he severed his connection to it entirely; becoming the very essence of Undeath itself.

*Side-bar: I’ve been thinking about my demons that don’t quite fit the elemental echoes and although it’s a bit unorthodox, I’m thinking perhaps instead of having an Abyssal origin, they should instead be creatures of Shadow... things that exist entirely outside the light or even the echoes of the Source... things that break reality by their presence, but cannot abide the light of day. Perhaps they are the embodied dreams of the Demon Emperor itself, bubbling up from the depths of the Shadow World and into the darkest corners of the Mortal World where they wait to prey upon the unwary?*

All of this raises questions about what the Demon Emperor actually is now, and whether that's even an appropriate title for him now. Good questions that should be asked in-setting, but questions nonetheless. Saying that he's ascended beyond being the demon emperor bastardizes the term, but you can't really say that he's merely a demon anymore. He's something that people don't even have a name for, because he's the only one of his kind. The fact that he severed himself completely from something that all demons crave - even as an escape from the Outer Dark, says a lot about him. I had never truly considered the implications of it. In a way, he forsook his fallen brothers and left them to squabble over scraps in the Outer Dark. He may be trapped in the Shadow World, but he's definitely not scheming alongside his fellow demons, even through intermediaries.

Chris24601 wrote:

The problem there is that my conception of the Primal Spirits and Covenant completely falls apart without the Source/Great Spirit at its heart.

The Primal Spirits aren’t alternate gods to the Astral Gods... they’re the servants of One God. The Covenant isn’t with the Primal Spirits... it’s with the One God (the primal spirits are merely the implements through which the One God fulfills the Covenant).

The Astral Gods cannot be primal spirits because unfallen primal spirits would never allow themselves to be worshipped.

The Primal Path is Monotheistic. It cannot become polytheistic and still be what I need it to be. I need it be something my very Christian sister and brother-in-law would be comfortable letting my niece play. I need it to be something all the very devout Christian families around me would be comfortable with their kids playing.

Truthfully, I’ve NEVER been particularly comfortable with the polytheistic bent of most D&D settings. It’s just a game, but there are times I feel like it’s asking you to put things before God. It’s why I typically play “Atheistic” (in the sense that the “gods” are just very powerful beings, not the origin of morality) characters in most campaigns and why I refuse to play in the Forgotten Realms because it’s underlying cosmology is downright hostile to not embracing its brand of polytheism (to the point I consider embracing undeath (or some other form of non-divine immortality) and actively attempting to murder the gods in the FR setting to be the only morally good path available).

One of my favorite parts of 4E was how it finally broke the chains on healing magic being near exclusively tied to the worship of polytheistic gods. I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a Divine Source PC in any 4E game in my area; Every healer we ever had was a Bard, Artificer or Warlord. We were finally able to play the game without this problematic but required by the game math element hanging over us.

Frankly, the Astral gods are my concession to traditional D&D settings and the desire to let the system be able to emulate every aspect of D&D in terms of races and classes. I’ve come to appreciate them because they help create the same sort of uncertainty the real world has... where you have to take many things on faith. I avoid explicit answers about the truth of the supernatural world because I think GMs being free to decide the specifics of the truth for their campaigns themselves makes it a better game (because a game is not a theology tract).

But it’s no accident that Warden Blackthorne and three-quarters of the signature characters on the Player’s Guide cover are members of the Old Faith (and the fourth is a Han Solo style agnostic). Because that’s where my heart is.

I may muddy the waters, but I will never actually undermine the ability for the Covenant take on the cosmology to be true.

The trappings of nature have been my stumbling block with regard to the Old Faith this whole time - I instinctively associate nature spirits with neopaganism and Mother Earth worship, concepts that I don't care for at all. I suppose that I'm conflating the various folk religions with the Old Faith.

You raise an interesting point about D&D's polytheistic setting - the gods, even in 4e, never felt like true gods, but more like just powerful figures. The point about them not being the center of morality really cuts to the heart of it. The very nature of polytheism means that the concept of a god is watered down, since not every god can be the top god, the one who decides what is moral. In 4e especially, they seem more like a species akin to the primordials or the fey than the creators of the setting.

I was on RPG.net briefly, and I remember your posts about the Forgotten Realms and what an utter shitshow the cosmology and afterlife was. Who in the hell decided the Wall of the Faithless (and putting babies in it) was a good idea?

Chris24601 wrote:

Actually, I meant the term more in line with a Patron Saint and the patron spirit is intended to more a guardian angel/spirit guide, not an entity to be worshipped. In the case of Erin’yi, her description includes that her patron spirit is in fact her mother’s spirit watching over her and guided her to swear to the Covenant between Men and the Great Spirit.

Likewise, I chose to call it the Covenant to specifically invoke the covenant between God and Abraham and between God and his people after the Exodus.

The Old Faith may have some of the trappings of traditionally pagan religions with its nature/barbarian ties, but that’s because I enjoy flipping expectations on their heads (also malfeans as the truest devotees of the Faith), because it makes people think.

Flipping expectations is also why the Old Faith is the misunderstood underdog instead of the primary faith that rules over all others. I’ve checked out some more Christian-themed rpgs over the years and they always fall flat with their incessant need for their faith to be the One True All-Beloved Establishment religion of the world.

My reply to them would be two-fold. First, “Have you read any actual history books? The history of Christianity and Judaism before it is practically synonymous with the history of persecution and underdogs.”

Second, “if you want something to be embraced as cool in an rpg, don’t make it the all beloved Establishment... make it the persecuted outcast and underdog.”

And that’s the Old Faith my setting; the underdog and often persecuted religion of outcasts. Where Blackthorne became First Warden in spite of his conversion to the Old Faith rather than because of it. One whose victories are measured by “Yay! We’re not being enslaved and tortured for our beliefs” and “We have freedom of religion in the Free Cities so you can even follow that backwards Old Faith if that’s your bag.”

WRT Patron Saint vs Patron Spirit and me not seeing the connection: that's the Protestant in me not making the connection - I know more about 4e's warlock patrons than I do the saints.

Your two questions to other Christian RPG makers are very good ones. The bit about making the cool thing the persecuted outcast is going to resonate more with RPG players, since rightly or wrongly they view themselves as persecuted outcasts. I'd say we, but it's been so long since I've played that I'm not sure I really count anymore.

Also, the point about the historical persecution of Christians and Jews is something that a lot of people copying Christianity's basics to another setting as per the Crystal Dragon Jesus trope forget. Christians used to have to worship in secret, in catacombs beneath the city to avoid the Romans. Heck, being forced to worship in secret, along with all the other persecutions, is still happening in certain parts of the world, and Christianity's place as the underlying religious force of Western Civilization has never been certain.

Chris24601 wrote:

As to Warlocks, I do have them and they’re tied into the Pacts of the Astral Path. They’re someone who formed a pact with a (often dark) astral power and then went back on their agreement (causing them to be hunted by those loyal to the astral power since the power granted is the recipient’s for life).

I remember you saying something about that, I was thinking about in 4e there was a significant amount of overlap between the D&D divine classes and the warlock.

Honorbound wrote:

I did not know that about the kabuki. I knew that there was significant association of geisha with prostitution, but the kabuki thing was new. It really puts a new spin on calling something kabuki theater.

It really does. I don’t know if you watch the Orville at all, but their “insert into conversation to reveal its under duress” is “thirteen button salute” which is a real navy slang term for ripping off your pants to have sex... basically it’s saying “we’re F@#%-ed!”

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That's the beauty of the 4e-style mechanics first, mutable fluff approach. You can tailor that stuff to your campaign setting's needs.

It’s certainly saved my bacon on page count because I don’t NEED to provide more than an evocative name and the actual mechanics for most things.

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I like the new role thing you're proposing with the sidekick - it really emphasizes their shtick beyond just allowing extra attacks. It's something that the captain can't do even if they take the ally attack.

It’s also something I’ve left off the multi-class benefits list (because otherwise sidekick is strictly better for multi-classing). Basically, if you want that benefit you’ve gotta be a sidekick first.

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What you could do with the skirmisher in order to let it keep some stance utility for its rapid attack is to scrap the original level 10 benefit and just let it use stances with the rapid attack at level 10. It could gain some controller/guardian utility later on, but it wouldn't be able to control like a dedicated acrobat. The only reason that I don't suggest scrapping that feature altogether is to give the player some kind of improvement with rapid attack.

I’ve started making some notes. One option would be to make the level 5 into the old Shifter benefit of making two half-damage attacks with the minor action. This comes right about the time their damage gets high enough to drop a lower level grunt with a half-damage hit so even without the Group Edge rule coming into play they could be making attacks on four grunts in a single turn (using the rapid attack for your main action too).

That said, I think “use a stance with the attack” would be a little late in terms of changing up the skirmisher’s playstyle if it comes at level 10. So I’m leaning towards something else for level ten that keeps on the pure damage aspect of the rapid attack. Not 100% sure what it will be, but that’s probably the direction I’m leaning there.

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Your summoner idea works a lot better than what I was thinking, and the skirmisher beast companion is workable as well. I don't have any alternative to the defender beastmaster idea you're proposing. I do like the image of the summoner having a bear companion, summoning a bear, and then taking the shifter utility to turn into a bear. It's the return of the ursine swarm!

And as long as it’s balanced in the action economy I have zero problem with that. While 5e promised to be D&D for everyone via modules, it never delivered (the modules were vaporware). My goal is to actually do good on that promise.

You can build a super-simple fighter and a squishy wizard who’s powers are mostly big dailies (make END secondary instead of your Focus score for 2-3 more surges and then use those and some of your base surges explicitly for your attack spells). You can also build a complex warrior and a super-simple blaster wizard.

Personally, I’d actually try the aggressively hegemonizing ursine swarm as a sorcerer Maledictor with the psychic implement option. Your summon attacks, your beast attacks and if it hits, you use an energy missile as a melee attack (thanks to the psychic implement property) so all three of you are working over the opponent during your turn.

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I didn't know that because I haven't been reading the gnome's entry thoroughly enough, but that is hysterical. I can imagine a particularly impish gnome screwing with an uptight group of elves with that - "I can go home and you can't - try and catch me there, sucker!"

Even worse for the elves is the completely clueless gnome who keeps harping on how boring it is back home and how you’re much better off here where things are wild and crazy and social norms are right out the window. They’re from the same place, but Elves’ heaven is a Gnome’s hell and a Gnome’s heaven is an Elf’s hell.

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You know what? I like the ambiguity of this better than I do putting in a light avatar option. It raises some very important questions about what exactly went down in the war in heaven.

That’s ultimately why I ended up where I did with things. Originally I had intended to be pretty straightforward in what the truth of the cosmology was, but ultimately I think the setting is richer for having some mystery to it.

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You're right, that is worth exploring.

Well, as a starting point, consider what a 15th level high elf with an Astral Spellcasting Path and the Potent Spark trait would look like using the “PC Light” option for custom opponents. Then tweak that to be a Champion instead of just an elite.

I think that would be a solid baseline for embodied Astral Aspects of the Elven Gods.

Fluffwise though the really interesting part is what happens when one is actually killed? Can they only reincarnate to another Aspect-tier being? Or could they actually be reborn to any family within their ancestral house (i.e. If Kar-Taxsu’s aspect were slain Danai Kar-Taxsu’s eventual child could be the reincarnation of Kar-Taxsu’s actual Aspect)? And what would that do for a family’s honor and prestige?

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I wasn't thinking about the numbers. When I think of the war in heaven and the loyal vs fallen angels, I'm thinking that the numbers on all sides are much greater, infinite even. It was a fallacious assumption, both because infinity divided by anything is still infinity, and because the demons saw the need to breed malfeans as taskmasters instead of making the lowest demons do it.

To be fair, the REAL numbers are “as many as you need for the story you’re telling” but the general idea is that spirits/demons/avatars are pretty rare. 20-40k is probably a bit low, but only because of the number of sprites  (I’d say each sprite swarm counts as one of those 20-40k instead of each individual sprite). Collectively a sprite swarm (or imp swarm for the demonic equivalent) is a match for one of the larger spirits (unless its a PC sprite), but that’s still probably only 20-40 imps trying to manage 200 humans.

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All of this raises questions about what the Demon Emperor actually is now, and whether that's even an appropriate title for him now. Good questions that should be asked in-setting, but questions nonetheless. Saying that he's ascended beyond being the demon emperor bastardizes the term, but you can't really say that he's merely a demon anymore. He's something that people don't even have a name for, because he's the only one of his kind. The fact that he severed himself completely from something that all demons crave - even as an escape from the Outer Dark, says a lot about him. I had never truly considered the implications of it. In a way, he forsook his fallen brothers and left them to squabble over scraps in the Outer Dark. He may be trapped in the Shadow World, but he's definitely not scheming alongside his fellow demons, even through intermediaries.

As you said, these are things that are best answered by individual GMs in their games, but the version in my head is that “Demon Emperor” is used mostly because that’s what it was called the last time anyone was sure what it actually still was. Kinda like how even after the Mayor on “Buffy” ascended to become a pure demon, they still referred to him as the Mayor, even years later. Or like how we still refer to former Presidents as “President [name]” even though someone else is now the actual President.

As to what the Demon Emperor is now... in my head, he’s dead. Stormbringer and the first adventurers killed him in the final battle of the Demon War.

Except that was the Demon Emperor’s plan. He’s dead, but “that which is dead may never die.”

It (calling it a he is a complete misnomer for what it is now) IS the Shadow Power Source. IT is the blackness that seeps into every shadow path caster’s heart when they cut away a piece of their soul to gain the power of shadow and slowly consumes them until only the eternal hatred of life and light remains.

And even dead... IT dreams. Dreams that seep up from the depths of the Shadow World, given form by shadow and slip into the dark places of the world where they seek to fulfill the purpose they were dreamt into being for. Dreams that Men have come to call the Hollowers (the Horrid Mass is one of these).

If IT has a name at all anymore, I’d call it The Hollow... but even that is just a euphemism. It’s true name is the silence between words.

Chris24601 wrote:

The trappings of nature have been my stumbling block with regard to the Old Faith this whole time - I instinctively associate nature spirits with neopaganism and Mother Earth worship, concepts that I don't care for at all. I suppose that I'm conflating the various folk religions with the Old Faith.

You raise an interesting point about D&D's polytheistic setting - the gods, even in 4e, never felt like true gods, but more like just powerful figures. The point about them not being the center of morality really cuts to the heart of it. The very nature of polytheism means that the concept of a god is watered down, since not every god can be the top god, the one who decides what is moral. In 4e especially, they seem more like a species akin to the primordials or the fey than the creators of the setting.

I was on RPG.net briefly, and I remember your posts about the Forgotten Realms and what an utter shitshow the cosmology and afterlife was. Who in the hell decided the Wall of the Faithless (and putting babies in it) was a good idea?

My hunch is copious amounts of drugs were involved.

As I understand it, it was added to force players to pick one of the FR gods as a patron after the novels went and introduced the concept of Ao the Overgod. Because who’s ever going to worship, say, Mystra, when you could worship the entity that created all the gods and set the rules of the cosmos? ... introduced in the very same trilogy that also changed the rules so the gods would be dependent on the number of worshippers they have for their power.

So if you tried to worship Ao, you were considered faithless (because you didn’t worship the creations instead of the Creator) and got shoved into the wall. Babies just ended up there as the concept was taken to its logical conclusion that anyone too young to have chosen a patron was also faithless.

All because the people behind Forgotten Realms wanted to enforce their concept of a pagan utopia... and ended up turning it into a literal hell dimension where the occupants were forced to worship lies because trying to pursue truth was punished with eternal torture even worse than if you’d chosen the god of MURDER for your patron.

Why 5e decided to make such a nightmare it’s default setting dumbfounds me.

* * * *

One other point on the whole primal nature trappings. As a Catholic it’s a bit less alien a concept if you’ve ever experienced the pagentry of the Easter Vigil (there’s a reason the TVTropes “Christianity is Catholic” page exists).

It begins, well, technically today, with Ash Wednesday where the people are annointed with ashes in the sign of the Cross on our foreheads made from the burnt palm branches from the previous Palm Sunday as a call to penance and a reminder of our mortality during the 40 days of Lent leading up to Holy Week.

But if you want to get downright elemental, the Easter Vigil is where it’s at. It starts with a fire outdoors under the stars as the sun sets. The people gather around the fire and it is blessed and then the sins of those about to join the church that night, which they wrote down on slips of paper and nailed to a cross (folded up so they could not be read) during a retreat earlier that day are cast into the fire to be burned away.

Then the Easter Candle is blessed and lit from the fire and from it each of the parishioners lights a candle (symbolizes the Holy Spirit within us) and they process into the darkened church which is now lit by several thousand candles.

We then begin a series of readings, beginning with Creation, then moving through the history of the Old Testament where God fulfilled his Covenant; Abraham being asked to sacrifice Isaac (on the very same hill where Jesus will one day be crucified as the true sacrifice), Moses parting the Red Sea (on the third day after the first Passover... the same night Jesus rose from the dead to free us from the slavery of sin and death) and all the prophets speaking of the coming Messiah until finally, at the Gospel reading, the full lights in the Church are brought up.

We then move on to the initiation of new members, which for the unbaptised involves a full immersion baptism before the congregation. Then holy water is sprinkled on the entire congregation as we renew our Baptismal promises.

Darkness and Light, Fire and water and burning incense (air) throughout culminating in presentation and blessing of the gifts of bread and wine (earth) and which, for Catholics, we believe is transubstantiated into the actual Body and Blood of Christ (the divine itself) which we are privileged to consume.

Fire, Water, Air and Earth all merging with the Divine on the holiest night of the year. If that’s not a Primal religious ceremony, I don’t know what is.

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WRT Patron Saint vs Patron Spirit and me not seeing the connection: that's the Protestant in me not making the connection - I know more about 4e's warlock patrons than I do the saints.

Saints are actually pretty simple as a concept. A saint is anyone who’s made it to heaven, whether we’ve heard of them or not. A canonized saint is one who is proclaimed by the Church to be known to be in heaven because of their virtuous life and because multiple miracles have been associated with petitions for intercession made to them.

Intercession is just asking the Saint to bring our prayers to God. It’s basically the same as asking a living person to say prayers for us, only we’re sure the Saint is in heaven and so can take our prayer to God directly.

Patron Saints are figures associated with various actions in life that are deemed worthy of emulation and for asking for intercession in areas they’re associated with (kinda like getting help from a specialist instead of a general practitioner).

When a Catholic is Confirmed (the rite of full acceptance into the Catholic Church; Baptism is an initiation done for those born into the Faith as infants; Confirmation is when we make the decision for ourselves) they are asked to pick a particular saint as their patron... someone they feel a particular connection to.

This is where my concept of the Patron Spirit comes from... a guide chosen by the Primal caster when they swear their oath to The Covenant.

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Your two questions to other Christian RPG makers are very good ones. The bit about making the cool thing the persecuted outcast is going to resonate more with RPG players, since rightly or wrongly they view themselves as persecuted outcasts. I'd say we, but it's been so long since I've played that I'm not sure I really count anymore.

Once a gamer, always a gamer in my book.

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Also, the point about the historical persecution of Christians and Jews is something that a lot of people copying Christianity's basics to another setting as per the Crystal Dragon Jesus trope forget. Christians used to have to worship in secret, in catacombs beneath the city to avoid the Romans. Heck, being forced to worship in secret, along with all the other persecutions, is still happening in certain parts of the world, and Christianity's place as the underlying religious force of Western Civilization has never been certain.

Indeed. Narratively speaking, it’s also a lot more interesting to follow the underdog than the all-powerful Establishment. Star Wars wouldn’t be the phenomena it is if it were the story of a powerful benevolent Empire crushing a small band of wicked terrorists. The drama and appeal came from the forces of Good being the ragtag underdogs who triumph over the seemingly all-powerful villains.

The appeal of the underdog is that when they win it feels significant because it’s against expectations. It means more that the outcast gets a win over the Establishment (unexpected) than the Establishment crushing the outcast (expected).

The appeal of playing something like a Tiefling is largely that you’ve got more obstacles to overcome. An 18 Charisma human winning friends and influencing people doesn’t feel all that exceptional; all the advantages are in their corner. An 18 Charisma Tiefling doing the same feels more significant because they’ve got the stigma of being a Tiefling to overcome.

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I remember you saying something about that, I was thinking about in 4e there was a significant amount of overlap between the D&D divine classes and the warlock.

That’s because there really is. Both are making irrevocable pacts with a powerful entity to gain powers. It’s why once I broke from the OGL slotting the warlock concept into the Astral made the most sense.

Frankly, once you step away from D&D as your source material a LOT of the categories overlap because virtually every real world form of magic involves bargaining with/compelling spiritual entities of some type or another.

The main distinctions you can really make are the distinction between what used to be called Natural Magic (primative chemistry and medicine; trying to understand and use the properties of things from the natural world), Spirit Magic (making pacts with spirits to influence the world and achieve your ends) and Wonderworking (being granted the ability to work miracles in accord with the wishes of a higher power).

The distinction between the last two is intent. With Spirit Magic you are trying to enact your will on the world by bargaining with spirits. With Wonderworking you are acting in accord with the will of a higher power in pursuit of their ends.

And that’s also the basic breakdown of my three primary paths of magic and why they have the key ability scores they do.

Arcane (Gadgeteering and Wizardry) is Natural Magic. It is essentially a science and so is based on Intellect.

Astral is Spirit Magic. You are bargaining with spiritual entities for power to affect the world in the manner you desire (you bargain with specific beings for specific benefits by promising to perform acts you’re willing to perform. Your power is based on your ability to persuade and so is based on Presence.

Primal is Wonderworking. You are either granted inborn power (akin to Samson or other miracle workers) or gain the aid of a higher power because you have aligned yourself with its goals (and perhaps been ordained into service of the higher power). It’s power is based on understanding and inuiting the will of, in this case, the Great Spirit, and so is based on your Wits.

Design update for the elements we've been discussing.

The Loyal Beast companion is designed and the utility is available to Barbarians, Entertainers, Nobles and Travelers by default. Others can pick it via a utility that allows you to pick from other backgrounds.

To keep the existing sample ex-Beastmaster on track, he became a skirmisher (despite there already being two skirmishers, Fang Rider was built to explicitly leverage the beast's melee attack while being only good at ranged attacks themselves... so making him a brigand or ravager would have required an extensive rebuild) and because he was an Outlaw, I ended up coming up with a fun additional utility for Outlaws; Life Left Behind. This lets you pick a utility from another background, but only at character creation (basically a little something from your pre-Outlaw days you took with you).

Due to both layout issues and to curtail some mild confusion (Acrobat class and Acrobatics skill) the Acrobat class got renamed to Disabler. I think this better expresses the concept without tying it to a particular skill... Disabler applies equally to an acrobat using their skill to confound their enemies and a brutal fighter who uses nerve strikes to cripple his foes.

The Skirmisher's level 5 feature is now "make two attacks, each doing half damage." It's level 10 allows it to target every enemy in a burst 1 (melee or ranged depending on the weapon) and deal half damage to each one hit). Both can leverage the two-weapon specialization since the extra damage from using two offhand weapons is applied AFTER the damage is halved.

To make up for the lack of stances with Rapid Attack, I loosened up on the restrictions a bit. It now requires an offhand weapon to use, but you don't need one in both hands (though you still need two offhand weapons if you pick up the Two-Weapon Specialization to get the damage bonus).

The Sidekick's "Create Minor Opening" ability is also now in place.

The changes add some additional options and saved me two pages. I'll have an update up later today once I'm sure I haven't missed anything referring to Acrobats, Beastmasters and Loyal Steeds elsewhere in the document (I fixed it in the character creation chapter, but it could be in a few nooks and crannies somewhere).

Very nice - the skirmisher attacking in a melee burst fits the class better than what I was thinking.

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Your version of the aggressive hegemonizing ursine swarm is freaking terrifying, and the awesome part is that it's still balanced.

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If one of those ancient elves does reincarnate, what's really going to stir the pot is if they reincarnate as one of the low elves.

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Thanks for the information on Catholic practices. I had figure that the only saints were the canonized ones. Also, the description of the Easter Vigil really makes clear the Old Faith's Catholic inspiration. In this setting, it makes sense that there's no Protestant version, since the Old Faith hasn't gotten big enough to require that level of reformation.

***
The final fate of the demon emperor and what he became afterward is absolutely chilling. It's not even a distinct person anymore, demon or mortal, but a cosmological force, the Dark Side incarnate. The Hollowers being shadow creatures that aren't undead really expands the scope of the Shadow World and The Hollow's presence beyond just making undead. You've got an untapped well of potential here, allowing you to put in any kind of true horror that doesn't have an elemental classification, because these horrors are born of The Hollow itself.

Also, you need to make this the official word on the Shadow power source in this setting. It's freaking awesome, and it deserves proper recognition. Put it in the GM's Guide if you don't want it as player's knowledge, but it's so much better than the "Orcus on PCP and with photophobia" that I was thought of as the current demon emperor.

Nope. The saints are everyone who’s made it. One of the reasons for the Feast of All Saints (from which Halloween... or All Hallowed’s Eve, the night before All Saints Day... gets its name) is to celebrate all the unrecognized saints who’ve made it to heaven.

Another central concept related to saints that fits into the concepts of the Old Faith are ancestor spirits... or what the Catholic Church calls the “Communion of Saints.” The gist is, just because your body is dead, your eternal soul doesn’t stop being a part of God’s people and caring for the other members of God’s people... the living and the dead are all part of the same Body of Christ. All the people you’ve ever loved are still present and looking out for you even if you can’t see them with human eyes.

Erin’yi’s mother continues to look out for her as a fire spirit (no longer an ember echo, in death her fire is now pure) and the ancestor spirit utility allows you to get guidance in matters of knowledge from ancestors who’ve seen it all before.

Another world-building aspect of this is that ancestor spirits, particularly those who become elemental spirits, might be a part of the overall plan to repair the world after the Demon War broke it. The idea that at least some of the Malfeans who die faithful to the Covenant are becoming new Primal Spirits to replace those who became demons and the avatars who will never “get it” is a real “hope spot” in an otherwise bleak existence... literally salvaging the good from the evils the demons inflicted.

* * * * *

I’ll definitely put some words towards the ex-Demon Emperor/Hollow. If nothing else, it would make sense to include it in the opening section for the Hollowers once I get that monster entry written up.

Fluff-wise I think the Demon Emperor got the idea from Arcane Magic (which was invented by the dwarves to fight the demons). In my head, the Arcane Web is something like the nanotech from the series Revolution; a network of nanomachines that’s essentially everywhere by this point and redirects power to produce effects in accord with the programs running through it. Some Arcanists of a more Atheistic bent even suspect the Astral Gods of being extremely powerful AIs residing in the Arcane Web who create miracles for Astral Spellcasters by running spell programs through the Arcane Web (only as an AI they can manage a lot more programs at once than a mortal user).

That latter point is key to what happened with the Demon Emperor in my mind (regardless of whether it’s true of the Astral Gods or not). He allowed himself to be destroyed so that his essence could become, for lack of a better term, the Shadow Web. A web through which undead and shadow practitioners gain their power and echoes of the Emperor still whisper to and feed upon those connected to it. A web that is still running it’s own programs (the Hollowers and lord knows what else) in the background independent of those tapping into the Shadow Web for power.

You can’t kill him. He’s dead. Forever separated from the Source he so despised. But his Will and his Revenge upon the Source’s Creation still endure, tangling itself ever more tightly into Creation in order to one day choke the life from it.

Before anything else... its funny how things sneak up on you.

Not two days after I posted that list of "meh" to "outright laughable" alternate names as part of taking a break from another section of design work, one bubbled up in my brain as I was driving and fulfilled my initial criteria for serious consideration by knocking my metaphorical socks off.

I've been sitting on it for more than a week now to make sure it wasn't just a passing notion that would start to sound worse the more I used it.

"Shield & Spell" was in that camp with the made up oath to help anchor it to the world... but after a week I knew it wasn't going to actually work. I had a more muted reaction to the variations on "Shattered/Broken/Fallen Earth/World/Realms" that ended up with me playing with a few logo ideas for "Shattered Realms" but again, after about a week I knew it wasn't right.

In other words, if I both think "YES!" upon initially realizing it and still think "This has real potential" after a week or more, then I think its definitely a contender.

So what is it?


It's alliterative like T&T. It can have a fun acronym (RaR... as in "I'm a Monster! Rar!"). It's completely untapped in terms of web searches. It got a strong positive response from the two people I actually shared the name with. And, most importantly, it incorporates the dichotomy of the campaign world in a way I think Terrors & Tactics does not.

"Ruins" are the dark places of the world that the PCs adventure to in search of fame, fortune, lost secrets or to defeat the monsters who threaten those they care about.

"Realms" are the points of light in the dark world; from a tribal village to a city-state to a kingdom; that they strive to protect or rule or otherwise call their home.

The PCs are the bridge between those two worlds. Sallying forth from the safety of a Realm into the Ruins for their whatever purpose they are pursuing and then returning home with tales of danger and adventure and lost treasures and knowledge.

Who knows if it will stick or if I'll sour on it with a bit more time, but its truly the first alternative that feels like a real contender and hasn't fizzled in about a week, so I thought I'd share it here too.

* * * * *

On to playtest reports.

The first thing of note is that I shared the whole "Demon Emperor IS the Shadow Power Source" cosmology with that group and they were in universal agreement with you that it needs to be spelled out somewhere in the books.

Another related suggestion is that I should drop the term "The Great Spirit" in favor of calling it universally "The Source" throughout the text (with the debate being whether The Source is God or just a non-sapient "natural" phenomena like a star) because that would make the monotheist nature of the Primal Path/Old Faith a bit more apparent (apparently some people thought The Source and The Great Spirit were two different entities rather than different names for the same thing).

This also has me thinking that I should re-work "The Favors of the Astral Gods" section to better delineate the specific gods of the pantheons to make it clear which spells/aspects apply to which entity you're specifically making the pact with instead of keeping them unified for the purpose of making the associations between the Sky Father/Tyrant/Storm King/Phoz-Bin more apparent.

It might also play into how my thoughts are developing on the "Physical Gods" of the Elves. Specifically that, since whoever had the incarnate "Lady of Dreams" would clearly be top dog among all the elves of the world, The Queen should be the one god who ISN'T a "physical god" while the rest of the pantheon is an embodied and earthbound physical god. Each elven kingdom would then be flavored by whichever of the physical gods happened to reside there as their God-King/Queen while still worshiping the Lady of Dreams as their supreme deity.

It would also open up a theological question as to whether the earthbound gods were even the true gods at all or just the embodiment of Man's dreams of the gods (in the same way that elves are the embodied dreams of Men).

My thinking is that El-Phara's Earthbound God is almost certainly Phoz-Bin... god of law and administration; given the absolutely stultifying degree to which "tradition" and "know your place" plays with El-Phara, it would make sense for their God-King to be the embodiment of Law and Order. It being essentially "Aggressive Lawful Neutral" makes it the natural counterbalance to the more "Chaotic Good/Neutral" of the Free Cities.

And if I limit it to just ONE Earthbound God per Elven Kingdom, it means there are probably ten more out there elsewhere in the world, each with their own particular focus. So a more brutal elven kingdom lead by the Embodied God of War, A mercantile empire ruled over by the God of Commerce, a more Wild Elf style region ruled over by the Queen of the Four Seasons, etc.

* * * * *

The main mechanical note of the testing is that, while it was a nice sentiment, "Horde" as a treasure type doesn't work that well; particularly for flying creatures where its nearly impossible to track back to its lair once the opponent is dispatched. A lot of the expected treasure went completely un-found because the effort of locating the lair was deemed to great.

What this means is that in order to hit the actual expected wealth targets the values need to NOT be placed relative to the opponent type, but relative to where the encounters are taking place (i.e. putting treasure in a creature's lair in the same ruin is one thing; expecting them to range across 50 square miles to find the lair is another entirely).

It somewhat changes out the order of operations in terms of wealth rewards and makes my plan to include "wealth types" for individual monsters no longer viable. Instead of placing wealth by the opponent/encounter you have to figure out the overall CP in the adventure site and them figure out treasure for the site based on that.

This means less "X of Y type treasure" and more suggestions on sources of wealth from overcoming opponents in the rewards section (i.e. the ruin has 600 CP worth of challenges in it so it needs some combo of coins, valuable body parts, gear, magic items, bounty rewards worth a total of 3000c to be associated with the ruin).

That said, the rough "Wealth by Level" values are working okay when I've just awarded them to players after having the party gain a level (i.e. you reach level 4 so gain 3000c) in terms of what their equipment looks like. What's especially interesting to see is the way players will save up to get one legendary quality weapon/implement instead of getting nearly a full set of fine quality gear (melee and ranged weapon, armor and/or shield).

In terms of expectations this means that I need to expect legendary quality weapons by level 5-6 (depending on its base cost), but that better quality armor and other items, including even basic mounts in some cases) will not be seen at all until after that first legendary item has been acquired (unless one of the treasure items is a fine quality weapon or armor).

Ruins and Realms - I like it. Literally every part of it has a deeper meaning that ties into the setting's themes and lore. I think you've got a winner here.

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I'm glad that the Demon Emperor/Shadow Power Source thing went over well. I also like the idea of just calling The Source, well, The Source. It separates The Source from the primal spirits, just as God is separate from the angels.

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As you said, having the god of dreams not be one of the earthbound gods makes sense, since it allows the separate elven kingdoms to do their own thing. In addition, it makes poetic sense that the god of dreams is the only one that isn't bound to the mortal, waking world.

The name really did just sneak up on me. As you've seen from all the variations suggested I'd been playing with a number of variations of "[Adjective] Realms" and "Ruins & [Word]" was a thing too... but I'd never once thought about actually just combining the two.

Its so obvious in hindsight.

To date, no one who's heard the new name has had anything other than a positive reaction. Even a person who'd interviewed me about my game and was disappointed because it was being called Terrors & Tactics in her video agreed that Ruins & Realms was a damned good name.

* * * * *

Very true on The Source as being more distinct and separate from the primal spirits. The Great Spirit implies that The Source is just a really big primal spirit in a lot of ways; whereas even the Astral faiths acknowledge that The Source is an actual thing that exists, they just think its an object rather than a being.

In fact, one of Astral's big selling points is; souls come from The Source and go back when they die but what happens then is a mystery. Sure, they MIGHT spend eternity in paradise with a supposedly all powerful Creator... but they might also get burned up as for fuel to make other souls leading to your eternal obliteration. Wouldn't you rather take the sure bet of Eternity as the servant of an Astral God?

* * * * *

Another thing I like about the Demon Emperor becoming the Shadow Power Source is that it answers a pretty important theological question... WHY is the Demon Emperor not in the Outer Darkness with the other demons? As bad as he might have been, there was no real reason why he should have gotten a special prison on the near side of the Great Barrier when he could have been cast into essentially Hell along with all the rest.

But if the Demon Emperor died and his Essence dissipated before the Great Barrier was even erected? Then there was nothing left TO throw into the Outer Darkness and by the time the humans and primal spirits who fought the war and did the banishing, it was too late; the Great Barrier was up and couldn't be brought back down without letting all the still living demons back into the world.

So the world is broken... flawed, because the Essence of the Demon Emperor still touches the world; whispering in the hearts of Men and keeping the world from becoming the paradise it once was.

And I'm thinking I might expand on the Malfean Promise/Messiah aspect in relation to this. The Malfean Messiah is the one destined to finally destroy the Emperor's Essence by casting it into the Outer Darkness (whereupon the Barrier will become impenetrable, even from the Inside... it is malleable now only because it will one day need to be opened one final time), thus allowing the world to finally be purified/healed.

This, of course, presents all sorts of theological problems for... well, just about every other non-Primal religion out there. If this Messiah comes and succeeds, the Shadow Power Source and every undead in existence goes away. If the Barrier becomes impenetrable then those who worship the demons lose all their power. If the world is healed of its spiritual fractures then it is again the perfect mirror of The Source and all the astral motes/realms and their gods fade away (and with it the power of Astral spellcasters).

In other words... The Malfeans' salvation is basically the Apocalypse for every other spiritual power source. This adds a bit of nuance to the persecution of Malfeans by various faiths (particularly true believers like Malcer). Its not JUST sins of the ancestors; its the nagging fear of "what if their prophesy IS true?" and "How do we prevent it from coming to pass?"

* * * * *

The other part of Goddess of Dreams not being physically manifest is that it opens up the prospect that the Elves are misinterpreting their own faith.

I've been asking myself for a bit "Why only the Dream Spirits?" Well there ARE Fetches too, but the Elves are explicitly the dreams of men, not general astral spirits... while you might be able to build a Succubus-like being using the Elf race, the elves aren't the wide-ranging menagerie that the Avatars are (I suppose they could be, but that's a whole different kettle of fish if Succubi and Chain Devils and the like are are actually types of elves... who instead of the dreams of Men, are embodied astral spirits in general... its almost a "Lost Girl" interpretation of the Fae as being just about any supernatural being of vaguely humanoid shape).

So they're only "Dreams" but they worship the entire array of the Astral Pantheon and the high elves even trace their lineages to specific astral gods.

But what if they don't? What if their gods, with the exception of the Dream Goddess, are just the dreams of gods? What if the power of the Elven Pantheon is a great Illusion/Dream they all believe in? Their god of war is the Collective Dreams of Men about a God of War.

Its definitely something to kick around I think.

Sometimes the best things just sneak up on you. Also, everybody's hindsight is 20/20.

***

Imagine the level of denial that Phoz-Bin's dealing in to ignore the idea that he isn't the rightful god-king of El-Phara, but is instead man's dream of a god of law and order.

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I noticed that the gadgeteer path was missing a Presence-related option, making a Tony Stark-style showboating inventor hard to pull off. I was thinking of another "add focus stat to an Engineering check" option, but the only ones that don't have (proficient only) are Create Artwork, Disguise, and Open Locks. Do you have any ideas?

Edit: Or you can just expand troubleshooter gadgeteers to use Wits or Presence the way the Faithful astral casters use Wits or Intellect.

I’ll see what I can do about the Gadgeteer. The main reason they were left out is I didn’t see a super good fit between the Engineering and PRE. Tony Stark feels like a troubleshooter who happens to be relatively charismatic rather than someone who’s science is predicated on being sociable. Don’t forget that legendary clothing gives a +2 to social checks (and the Iron-Man suit is blinged out with gold) for people who care about wealth and buying things for people also gives positive modifiers for those who care about those things... probably why his charms didn’t work all that well on Pepper. He probably also had proficiency in Persuade, used Esoteric Experience for “Read the Room” along with Improved Ability to bump his PRE up a bit since his END was compromised by his heart injury and he had his suit for STR. He’s probably be STR 1, END -1, REF 1, WIT 4, INT 4, PRE 2 (3 w. Improved Ability Utility) at level 1.

That said, I’ll see if I can’t come up with something PRE. Although I don’t think PRE fits with creative solutions like the Troubleshooter... so I think I’d lean towards something like “Social Engineer” and focus on the idea of persuading and influencing people for them is more a science than an art. Along with something more along the lines of the Social Wizard, the changes I’m making with Implements (see below) may provide some additional flavor (if their implements are a bit non-standard from the usual gadgeteer).

* * * * *

So, today’s update was initially going to be entirely about a tweak to implements I finally got around to that was based on some feedback. It’s been low priority because implements were “good enough” but I was feeling a little frustrated with the wealth rewards section, so decided to work on something I actually had a cleaner sense of.

The gist of the feedback was that implements needed to be more distinct to the paths of magic and give them enough options that they shouldn’t actually be able to get all the options for their path without taking implement proficiency specialization (versus only using implement proficiency to grab an implement from outside your usual path).

So, I started tweaking some things. First was to come up with some more distinct implements for each of the four paths. While there was always going to be some overlap, I could at least provide some more flexibility. Here’s what I ended up with;

Astral Path
- Censer: incense burner on a chain. Can be used as a light flail and has the Splash property as the smoke carries the astral magic to its target.
- Holy Symbol: of the big handheld variety; makes astral magic more accurate and longer ranged.
- Runic Weapons: particularly of the type sacred to an astral good.
- Sash/Vestments: robes of office that help protect you (shield 1 property).
- Staff: got a rework. Instead of providing a shield bump, it now adds the melee 5 property (so it can be used safely in close combat and has the Versatile property so it gets a damage buff if used with two hands instead of just one.
- Tome: like the arcane one, only filled with Astral Prayers/Rituals. Where it gets interesting is that only Faithful Astrals get the tome, but do NOT get two-handed runic weapons (those are for Militant and Zealous Astrals).

Gadgeteer
- Alchemical Cache: as before, but clarified that while you need one hand to throw a flask, it can be open whenever you’re not making an attack with it.
- Battlefists: now have a Melee 5 and Range 10 property (instead of just Melee 10). If you wear two they get the versatile property (double-fisted magic blasts).
- Field Generator: As before.
- Goggles: worn implement inlaid with arcane circuitry to guide spells accurately to their targets.
- Projectors: as before.

Primal:
- Crystal: a hand-held crystal that helps primal magic seek out hidden targets (i.e. splash property).
- Holy Symbol: as the Astral version, but a symbol of the Old Faith.
- Reliquary: a worn pouch of relics that protects the wearer (shield property).
- Runic Weapons: As before.
- Staff: same as for Astral.

Wizard
- Amulet: worn protective implement.
- Orb: used to find hidden targets (splash property).
- Runic Weapons: One-handed only unless you’re a war wizard. Common choices are the dagger, long knife or cestus (think the brass-knuckle-like Sling Rings from Doctor Strange).
- Staff: as the astral and primal versions.
- Tome: as before.
- Wand: long range and accurate just like before.

The trick of the above is that while there are more options; you only get to pick three of the six by default. So you could have a classic Wand/Staff/Tome wizard or a more subtle Amulet/Orb/Runic Dagger. A pious Astral might have Holy Symbol/Tome/Censer while a warrior might have both runic weapons and the sash/vestments (since it requires no hands to use and provides a passive property benefit).

So slightly fewer options per character (which doesn’t matter too much because most just pick one or two they really like to actually use anyway), but more options to choose from to make the character your own.

Because of some of the tweaks I also adjusted some of the sorcerer energy properties a bit as well;
- Acid: Accurate (unchanged).
- Astral: Shield 1 (was Improved Crit... shield needed to be somewhere and makes sense as the opposite of shadow’s effect).
- Cold: High Crit (was shift targets, but I’m trying to remove super-exotic effects from the level of basic implements and cold is one of those... I’m fine, I’m fine, OHCRAPEquipmentFailureI’mGoingIntoShock deals).
- Fire: Lethal (unchanged).
- Force: Melee 5 (so it’s still in line with the staff and the notion that force eddies make itn).
- Psychic: Splash (was Melee 10, which was based on the idea that psionic-ish power would take less focus/distraction... which is silly. Now its Splash because you can use psychic power to target their mind without actually seeing someone).
- Shadow: Lethal (was High Crit, but cold needed something and it makes sense that anti-life is generally nasty).
- Storm: Range 20 (unchanged).
- Toxic: Improved Crit (was Splash; which made sense when I was thinking of toxic clouds, but the actual spells include biting swarm, toxic transmutation and viper’s bite; so now it’s the idea of toxic being good at overwhelming you because it stays in your system so it’s easier to get to critical levels of toxicity).

* * * * *

So one possible implement change for a social engineer might be adding something as a tool for hypnosis, like replacing the Alchemical Cache for a crystal (on a chain for oscillating back and forth as the target watches) and the tome (a treatise on how to win friends and influence people through magic) replacing the heavy projector.

Your analysis of Tony Stark's stat's make sense - his charisma is part of his character, but unrelated to his engineering skills. Your idea of a "How to Win Friends and Influence People" gadgeteer is the main way I can see somebody leveraging presence into an engineering context.

The key question is what benefit does the social engineer get beyond the swapping of implements. Perhaps an Int bonus to one of the social checks?
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The new implements make sense. Force and Psychic make more sense where they are, and Toxic and Cold are consistent with how they tend to work in the real world, for the reasons you stated.

The sling rings aren't the only idea I had for a cestus-wielding wizard. In the Dresden Files, a secondary character Carlos Ramirez casts water magic (basically acid and weaponized entropy) using a glove with small metal plates etched with Olmec writing on it.

One of these days I’ll have the time to sit down and actually read Dresdan. As it stands I’ll just say “cool beans” about another source for the cestus as a magic implement.

Honestly, the cestus is one of the reasons I changed up the spellcaster weapon proficiencies from something like 1e’s “dagger, dart, staff” to “any three simple weapons” (this was back before I’d merged the power sources into the spellcasting archetype... so it literally applied only to the “wizard/sorcerer” class; and WOW has this project ended up looking NOTHING like the original plan... at some point I really need to post the original iterations of the species and classes again just to remind myself how far this has come from the original 4E retroclone-ish concept).

* * * * *

As to the “social engineer” I’m starting to remember why I didn’t include it originally; because it’s basically the Social Wizard (using intellect and arcane magic principles to influence people)... which is also an INT/PRE-based path. Even the alternative implements I was thinking of having the social engineer use... crystals and tomes and maybe amulets (an alternative to hypnotizing with the crystal) are all Social Wizard implements.

It’s worth remembering that barely a month ago, the Gadgeteer, Swordmage (now War Wizard), Wizard and Sorcerer were all just Arcane subpaths and still are. Astral and Primal have four subpaths because it was the only way to get all the combos of WIT/Other and PRE/Other. Social Wizard already provides one arcane INT/PRE option and I’m not certain there’s enough to really distinguish a social gadgeteer from a social wizard.

I’ll certainly keep looking for an angle, but if it’s not something significantly different from the other INT/PRE Arcane option, it probably something that’s not remotely ready for prime time.

You raise a good point with regard to redundancy with the social wizard.

Doesn't mean there's not an angle to explore; just maybe not THAT angle.

The thing with the gadgeteer is their gadgets... the SCIENCE!!!

So how do we use gadgets in a way that lines up Presence? I'm reminded of an episode of The Tick where a villain used a helmet (powered by a gasoline lawnmower engine) to massively boost his psionic abilities.

Something like Hypno-Goggles, Mind-Over-Matter Implants in your brain, and stuff like that.

Maybe even making yourself INTO the machine (it would take a strong sense of self to completely rewrite your body while retaining your sanity).

Heck, the idea for the Dwarves to go the direction of Arcane Artifice had to come from somewhere... and to voluntarily do something like that to yourself is perhaps just the right hint of genius, ego and madness for a Int/Pre-based Gadgeteer.

I think I even had something like that as one of my original concepts for one of the Gadgeteer builds (before the dwarves basically got the concept as their schtick to actually keep them out of the "Our Dwarves are the Same" trope).

I called it the "Self-Forged."

Okay, that might be something I can work with that isn't the Social Wizard/Engineer. I'm going to play with that a bit and get back to you.

If I remember correctly, that was the old Int/Str Gadgeteer. What if you had the Siege Engineer as a gadgeteer general directing the troops, using his presence to inspire the troops, and the Self-forged as the heavy armor-wearing cyborg?

Just realized - the inspiring gadgeteer I just proposed could run into difficulties as a non-enabler, from a fluff perspective. Perhaps it can be like the daring tactical focus.

Yeah, Paths shouldn’t have a role. Also worth noting is that leadership isn’t synonymous with Presence. A Captain could have PRE as their dump stat and still be an effective leader. People may happily follow them because their clever tactics (INT) or wariness and insight (WIT) provide their troops an edge even if they have the presence of a doorstop.

The other trick is that, as mentioned, having STR as your primary/secondary is almost it’s own reward... so giving some sort of additional benefits atop armor and a better weapon would put a STR-secondary “self-forged” over the top (the premise of the original self-forged was locked to what became the Empowered class so all the enhancements were fluffed as in-built gadgets).

The other trick is trying to avoid options providing the same benefits. One of the reasons the PRE-based Primal option got changed up when I added Sorcerer to Primal was because it’s benefit was just a repeat of the Daring Skilled option. Letting you select more magical utilities instead is the idea that by their charisma (fun fact, Charisma is derived from Charism... which literally means a divinely granted power or gift) they get a little extra out of the primal spirits (or their sorcerous connection to primal power).

So Skilled Daring lets you use two of the combat uses of PRE skills more effectively. Social Wizard lets you pick up Courtier utilities and Cantrips. Primal ones choose either Arcanist or Religious that they can gain utilities from (wizards and primals get less than Skilled because they get some base abilities like spirit sense and free fluency with languages that let you use rituals that make up for it).

The other aspect is that in terms of benefits from classes, they should mostly be combat related or allow extra options outside of combat (but not outright provide those options). “class is for combat” is the gist of it.

I did cheat a bit with Gadgeteers and their bonuses to certain Engineering checks, but again that was part of trying to provide something a little different than other paths or combat focuses did and also because, with the exception of disable device/open locks (which might come up in a combat if it has traps); engineering in general is not a “fast” skill. Rather, most tasks can be accomplished pretty easily just by taking 10 so all +Focus to Engineering does is let you make more progress per hours-long check (barring the Rapid Repair/Jury-Rig utilities making it minutes or rounds with Focus).

So where does PRE fit in with the predominantly INT-based Engineering and Arcane Web? WIT as intuition and troubleshooting/innovating solutions was the most reasonable; STR & REF were also pretty straightforward as you augment mostly physical tasks through the use of gadgets. PRE though feels almost like I’d need a “Mage the Ascension” style cosmology (belief creates reality) where a Gadgeteer could keep something running through sheer force of will (i.e. saying “Come on, baby! Keep it together!” actually does keep the item from failing until its done its job and “percussive maintenance” always works for them).

I’m not exactly sure how I’d model such a thing in game. I’ve got a few ideas, but I need to take a closer look at mechanics to see if they’d make sense... something about jury-rigs lasting longer/working better or their first repair check (but only their first) providing instant results (you pound your fist into the panel and it turns on... guess the wires were just loose).

Another alternative might be that you can spend an extra focus on your turn, but your implement is damaged or destroyed by doing so. Maybe it loses a quality grade for each use until repaired... destroyed if done to one already at poor quality... so while other gadgeteers are using fine and legendary magic items, they’re still using non-magical good ones because the repair cost on a legendary projector is £40 each time... and is 1 extra focus (that you still have to spend) worth losing the extra properties of a legendary quality magic item from an attack (or damaging said legendary item because things are just that desperate)?

I dunno yet, but that’s another way to possibly run with it.

I also thought of Strength as its own inherent benefit after I posted that. I do think that the idea of the self-forged needs to be brought back, but it could be a general gadgeteer benefit. The only catch with that is that it steps on the dwarf's toes.

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The jury rigs working better on their first repair might work - Mage the Ascension isn't the only one to do the "belief creates reality" shtick - Warhammer 40K's orks work like that - if they paint a vehicle red because "red ones go fasta!" then by God the red ones go faster. Granted, WH40K's setting is about as bleak as it gets. It ranks up there with the Forgotten Realms in terms of "spend your life researching portals to another dimension and evacuate as many people as possible."

The extra focus on your turn in exchange for damaging your implement is one that I'm twitchy about - I don't want to disrupt the focus economy, or even create a precedent that could lead to it.

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One idea I had was to make the Presence-focused gadgeteer a flavor of bard. You've got the purely martial bard (Swift/Daring captain/brigand/sidekick) with the entertainer background, and you've got the purely magical caster bard that 4e pulled off (Social wizard with the entertainer background), and Thermiolosus is something that no edition of D&D has ever seen, but the gadgeteer-type bard could be someone who uses gadgets as their version of special effects. Mechanically they could have better access to entertainer utilities or gain an Int bonus to perform checks (the specific subsets within acrobatics and persuade).

Dwarves are cranky when their toes are stepped on.

I kinda started reversing myself on Focus too... that is a twitchy balance point. Another option though, one that might be more broadly applicable as well, is a sort of "push the limits" for items. You can use the item as if it were one quality grade higher, but only for a limited time until it breaks and loses a quality grade from its base value (There should probably be a point too where if you only push it for say half that time before giving it some TLC during a rest where it doesn't lose the quality grade)

So if you had a good item, you could push/coax it to work like a fine item for X time, but then after that it has issues and drops to poor quality performance. Might be a weapon, might be armor, might even be a vehicle ("I'm given' her all she's got Cap'n!!!").

There's obviously no point to using it on a legendary item (which is so well built its always pushing the limits of design), but if it also applies to things like torches and other mundane equipment you may not want to buy at legendary quality it still has a lot of use ("just how long do you need this rope to support twice its rated amount?"... "we need more light! I throw some flare powder on the torch").

I'm thinking a good duration might be "Focus uses" (half Focus for TLC to keep it going) for things that work once per action (ex. weapon attacks) or "Focus minutes" for something that doesn't (making a ship sail faster, making a torch burn brighter) might be a good design point.

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The only issue with the Gadgeteer-bard is I think its too linked to a specific Background when it doesn't need to be. All your other examples are X with Entertainer background. This would be Gadgeteer with Entertainer abilities, but possibly have the Noble or Religious background.

Gadgeteer with Entertainer Background is what lines up with those other examples ("Play to Your Strengths" would even let them use Engineering to make their Performance checks; gadgeteering special effects and razzle dazzle).

Note that the background access for the other power sources (except the Social Wizard which is in a weird spot to begin with) is for backgrounds that are mostly utility spells. A wizard should be able to learn cantrips regardless of their background. A Gadgeteer should be able to pick up Rapid Repair or Creation regardless of their background, etc.

The only reason the Social Wizard ended up with Courtier is the number of abilities they have that could be passed off as use of enchantments and maybe a few illusions.

Most of the Entertainer's utilities don't line up that well with gadgets. Quite a lot of them are movement, others are deception based and still others animal based so I don't see a strong alignment there.

I'm leaning more "Push the Limits" for a PRE-focused Gadgeteer. The sort of Mad Genius who pushes designs past their breaking point to get an edge when its crunch time and tends to leave most things a smoking wreck afterwards... particularly vehicles they were piloting.

I was wondering whether the gadgeteer bard was too narrow a concept - to be honest, I was spitballing at that point.

The mad genius seems to be the best fit, and having it take advantage of a general "push the limit" mechanic could be the best way to do it. The more I think about it, the more it works - this is a guy for whom overclocking is a way of life. They dance of the edge of exploding equipment, running their stuff long past the point where saner gadgeteers would step back.

Another thing that the discussion of implements reminded me was that I always felt that it was odd that the light projector had a longer range than the heavy projector, given that the heavy projector's basically a magitech rifle and the light one's a pistol. Pistols tend to be much less effective at longer ranges, but they are easier to maneuver in close quarters. What I was thinking was giving the heavy projector the extended range and give the light projector some kind of melee property, such as melee 5 for its casting. That might be redundant with the melee weapon property of the projectors, but it could work.