Merging skills and Martial Practices... sort of.

Heroic Exertion : you may spend a healing surge to enhance a trained skill use in one of these ways.

• to perform a skillful action which would normally take protracted time - in significantly less time (1/5 or something perhaps) - aka rushing it.
  
• take ten in a stressful circumstance like a skill challenge in general when you otherwise couldn't  - steadying your nerves
  
• perform aide other on a group of unskilled allies without impairing your own performance. - leading the chorus.
  

Specialization Focus: When you train a skill you may pick a sub-area of that skill in which you are treated as having focus for instance for Perception you might pick tracking for that specific arena of use you are treated as though having skill focus with it.

I see the above pretty close to covering a majority of the martial practices. (those not based on inferior translations of something done with rituals)

Garthanos wrote:

Heroic Exertion : you may spend a healing surge to enhance a trained skill use in one of these ways.

• to perform a skillful action which would normally take protracted time - in significantly less time (1/5 or something perhaps) - aka rushing it.
  
• take ten in a stressful circumstance like a skill challenge in general when you otherwise couldn't  - steadying your nerves
  
• perform aide other on a group of unskilled allies without impairing your own performance. - leading the chorus.
  

Specialization Focus: When you train a skill you may pick a sub-area of that skill in which you are treated as having focus for instance for Perception you might pick tracking for that specific arena of use you are treated as though having skill focus with it.

I see the above pretty close to covering a majority of the martial practices. (those not based on inferior translations of something done with rituals)

The main value I see in this is simplification and the other is being able to distinguish those specific Martial Practices which are really just patches for the skill system and so in my opinion should be merged simply with the skill system and those which tight rope walk the line between non-magical and magical

Hmmm I guess my idea could be described as "Dont treat sub-skills as powers but rather allow them to be empowered."

I guess my question is if you merge skills with martial practices (which I support, BTW), what dose the overall skill structure look like at that point?  Would Skill Powers and Martial Practices already constitute being specific sub-skills or would they be actions that you can do that express sub-skills?

Also, there are feats that allow you either flat benefits to cretin actions in your trained skill sets or allow you to gain new skill related abilities (sure climber and escape artist are two that come up off the top of my head).  If you want to empower folks, would sub-skills work more like feats where you get bonuses and new options?  

thanson02 wrote:

I guess my question is if you merge skills with martial practices (which I support, BTW), what dose the overall skill structure look like at that point?  Would Skill Powers and Martial Practices already constitute being specific sub-skills or would they be actions that you can do that express sub-skills?

Also, there are feats that allow you either flat benefits to cretin actions in your trained skill sets or allow you to gain new skill related abilities (sure climber and escape artist are two that come up off the top of my head).  If you want to empower folks, would sub-skills work more like feats where you get bonuses and new options?  

Good questions.... there is some ambiguity currently between some feats and martial practices and what might be accomplished via skill use your example sure climber sure seems like it could have been an element of a martial practices or do you just let somebody make an athletics check to do any movement at faster paces? - think Parkour... and in that arena do we need scrambling climb (the skill power)? And if we have already accepted that heroic exertions allow an expenditure of resources to attain more extreme enhancements does one need either the feat or sp? Then there is the context of skill challenges you end up needing just skill numbers in effect skill powers need not apply and how does the feat interact with them? Do you ignore it or do you give the character some arbitrary benefit in that chase scene?

I have run my thinking in circles on this actually.

I have also been considering things which seem to virtually create a new skill and might make sense to then allow heroic exertions applied on to them.

Garthanos wrote:

I have run my thinking in circles on this actually.

I have also been considering things which seem to virtually create a new skill and might make sense to then allow heroic exertions applied on to them.

What new skill are you noticing?

Well, hmmm mayhaps quasi-skills or feats/boons sufficiently complex. Pathfinders mythic adventures basically made a hunk of feats most of which you can boost further by spending mythic power.

The Invocations  of Freedom and Justice though it starts as reflavoring a skill could almost be an example of a new skill, and the beginning of a skill based magic system...

At some levels the ability to sense bloodlines and manipulate allegiances that I have been working on feels like it could be a kin to the skill arcana.

Garthanos wrote:

Well, hmmm mayhaps quasi-skills or feats/boons sufficiently complex. Pathfinders mythic adventures basically made a hunk of feats most of which you can boost further by spending mythic power.

The Invocations  of Freedom and Justice though it starts as reflavoring a skill could almost be an example of a new skill, and the beginning of a skill based magic system...

Alright, I see where your coming from.  I was thinking new skills like adding craft and performance to the skill list (I personally think they should have been in there) because they tie into actions that are hard to hammer down with the current skill list.

I just got done reading through your link.  For the record, I LOVE your creativity with the powers.  Yes, it is ironic, and yes, it is fun!  It is about using what you have and using it to get the job done.  and there a bunch of different ways to implement them.  Feats are one way, but with what you described, I think a character theme would fit the bill nicely.  And given the fact that D&D presents usually a polytheistic divine structure, what you have would be great for the chosen follower of the god of thieves.

The way I look at feats is that they are character features that have ongoing effects to character options.  So they either give you new abilities or give ongoing bonuses to features characters already have.  Powers work like feats, but you can choose to use them or not.  A Theme is a "Feat Kit" that expresses a character's roll or what he/she is.  So you get the bonuses without having to use the feat tree to use them and they give you more power options when you reach the appropriate level.

This is all fairly strait forward, and I'm sure you know all this already.  But I know I would love to see your Divine Thief as a heroic level theme.

Garthanos wrote:

At some levels the ability to sense bloodlines and manipulate allegiances that I have been working on  feels like it could be a kin to the skill arcana.

It could.  Certainly give you options to spells that enchant and charm.  Sensing bloodlines could be an options to a more advanced level of Detect Magic, specially if the bloodline is magical.  Manipulating allegiances could also be a psionic ability.   

When I look at skills, I am looking at actions players can do in role-play.  The skill list should work independently of the rest of the gaming areas (combat, magic, ect), but they should be able to be influenced and modified by these other elements, just like those elements should be influenced by your skill training.  So let say your interrogating someone and you want to intimidate them to get answers.  You can threaten them verbally, or you can use magic to flair your eye with fire to scare them (which I would give a +2 to success) or you can give them a good beating (Also I would give them a +2 to success).  Independent, but enhanced.

Powers and Feats would fall under this enhancement options in skill use.  They augment and give bonuses, but the key would still be the skill.  Looking at how Martial Practices fit into this, I guess I am having problems seeing how they would augment or give bonuses.  Specialization in sub-skills would be a ongoing effect, which would fall under the feat option (as I stated in my last post) and you could have special abilities that are tied into sub-skills that you can choose to use (which would be a power option).

I could see Martial Practices working well with a format for using crafting objects such a campfires, armor, traps, ect and in that case, they might replace the need for a specific Craft Skill and depending on what ones class and theme is, each player could get a cretin amount of these at level one and gain more as they go up in level.  That would make sense for a hunter where he knows some basic traps at level 1 and by the time he is level 8, he has a whole bunch of options and special traps he has learned in his adventures.

I wonder if anyone else has come up with options for MP other then crafting things?

In the above post I pretty much ignored crafting things .

I think the skills of 4e are adventuring skills and if you are performing an otherwise mundane skill in a heroic circumstance... these heroic skills are supposed to be the meat of the characters success or failure with endurance checks *perhaps seeing if you can withstand the pain of the supernatural furnace you are operating in or maintaining your precision over the longer time because its of alien design and arcana checks to see if you can tame its wild energy or history checks to realize you are suppose to bloody the weapons in the demonoids which are popping out of the wall... not just kill them... and athletics checks to see if you can do it all fast enough for the greater demon to not interupt it (mayhaps its only showing up because you didn't use the lesser imps correctly from the start maybe). In other words its a skill challenge generated by the extraordinary context, with the other mundane skill being background for it.

However ... I did make up
Forge Mastery which is a improved merger of the Forging martial  practices (which were seriously inferior split and rendering of enchant item)
Forge Mastery (Endeavor): You can create magic weaponry or armor or actually just about any tool of war. Your level determines the level the magic item can have . The component cost is equal to the price of the magic item which you forge although additional effect price beyond the original bonus quality generally require a bit more (and may be paid in karma points). The war tools can be seeded in such a way as to leave them open to gaining additional more magical empowerment often featuring a quest involving the slaying of magical beast ... in some cases usage over time will build up the karma and trigger an effect (or a story branch to fix a flaw that results in more power)

Karma points is a parallel treasure designed to generally work with boons, blessings and grand master training (and also martial practices). It can be gained by charity or spirit quests or simply as alternate treasure in a quest.

I also made up Grand Mastery which is a pretty much the definition of a Martial Practice it allows you to create Grand Master trainings (as per the DMG2s alternate rewards) which are maintained by a regimen like daily excercises.

Oath Binder/Gift Awakener is much the same but which allows you to create Legendary Boons/Blessing (see karma points) - bound by oaths and taboos.

They are similar concepts ... which allow for extension beyond the mundane. The skill enhance martial practices didnt feel they actually did.

I can almost make Lugh Samildánach currently in 4e (legendary figure from Celtic Myth in my Sig)... I can easily see it approaching impossible when each potential profession becomes a design resource expenditure.

Garthanos wrote:

However ... I did make up
Forge Mastery which is a improved merger of the Forging martial  practices (which were seriously inferior split and rendering of enchant item)
Forge Mastery (Endeavor): You can create magic weaponry or armor or actually just about any tool of war. Your level determines the level the magic item can have . The component cost is equal to the price of the magic item which you forge although additional effect price beyond the original bonus quality generally require a bit more (and may be paid in karma points). The war tools can be seeded in such a way as to leave them open to gaining additional more magical empowerment often featuring a quest involving the slaying of magical beast ... in some cases usage over time will build up the karma and trigger an effect (or a story branch to fix a flaw that results in more power)

Karma points is a parallel treasure designed to generally work with boons, blessings and grand master training (and also martial practices). It can be gained by charity or spirit quests or simply as alternate treasure in a quest.

I also made up Grand Mastery which is a pretty much the definition of a Martial Practice it allows you to create Grand Master trainings (as per the DMG2s alternate rewards) which are maintained by a regimen like daily exercises.

Oath Binder/Gift Awakener is much the same but which allows you to create Legendary Boons/Blessing (see karma points) - bound by oaths and taboos.

They are similar concepts ... which allow for extension beyond the mundane. The skill enhance martial practices didn't feel they actually did.

All good ideas.  Is Forge Mastery a feat or a house-rule?

Forge Mastery is a house ruled martial practice which replaces the wholey inadequate Forge Armor/Forge Weapon practices.. based on the assumption that martial practices ought to be comparable to rituals in potency.

Actualy I am thinking there are two sets of martial practices tbe ones which are indeed very like rituals with significant costs to use (though perhaps in karma points) and ones which are heroic exertions whose cost involves healing surges.

I am also thinking the concept of heroic exertions could work on any skills ie they arent just martial which is part of the reason for merging with the skill system.

thanson02 wrote:

And given the fact that D&D presents usually a polytheistic divine structure, what you have would be great for the chosen follower of the god of thieves.

Such a character as an avowed god of thieves...  really doesnt need the alternate flavoring as it's primary purpose was to make "thieving" not ummm thieving though I can see how aligning the skill with alternative stats would make it still valuable.

I have also made other analogs for instance here is one of primal flavor.

Spirit Binding/Manipulation.

Bribing Appropriate Spirits - this is Charisma based, the household spirits are really the ones who allow or deny entrance in to a building "locks and similar contrivances are camouflage" (a bowl of milk or similar innocuous thing when properly invoked with mystical forces is usually just the thing to allow entrance as nobody remembers to propitiate them these days).

Binding Guardian Spirits - all things have spirits and humans invest mana in the devices they use to protect themselves, forcing one of these to manifest and binding it will disable the device associated with it at least for a time, its not actually that difficult to free such a bound spirit after all the original investor in it was able to manipulate or create this spirit unknowingly.

Channeling a Spectral Seaman - this fellow is competent at fixing and repairing boats in its basic form you are for the most part  accessing only his muscle memory. (though other aspects like accents and similar flavor will generally bleed through).

This is a direct instance where I want to use the same paradigm of specializations and heroic exertion. A specialization could allow one to channel a different spirit and perhaps a Heroic Exertion might allow that channeled spirit to travel outside of you.

Perhaps taking a note from Pathfinders Mythic adventures each "skill" ought to have its own effects invocable with heroic exertions...

thanson02 wrote:

When I look at skills, I am looking at actions players can do in role-play.

In other words practically anything or everything  

Garthanos wrote:

Actualy I am thinking there are two sets of martial practices tbe ones which are indeed very like rituals with significant costs to use (though perhaps in karma points) and ones which are heroic exertions whose cost involves healing surges.

I am also thinking the concept of heroic exertions could work on any skills ie they arent just martial which is part of the reason for merging with the skill system.

And I noticed too.  There are different grades of actions that one can do with some more complicated then others.  After one of your previous post, I went back to my skill list and started looking at what things people do that are come directly from the skill list.  The idea of actions that are extensions seemed to be the focus of skill training required feats and the skill powers in the core books.  Martial practices require equipment (components) and a cost to use (money, action points, or healing surges).  Or you can have someone else do it for you.

The cross over between marital practices and rituals are interesting.  I found a dozen rituals between PH 1 and PH2 that you could convert into marital practices, keeping them almost the same.  For example, you can convert Breath Underwater into scuba diving.  The only difference is that instead of breathing water, you have a air tank (sack, jar, whatever..) which is the component and and you can have it last the same length of time.  When you need to refill the tank would cost the same as buying the sacred herbs or reagents to cast the spell again.

Garthanos wrote:

thanson02 wrote:

When I look at skills, I am looking at actions players can do in role-play.

In other words practically anything or everything   

lol.  I suppose, that was a bit redundant.

thanson02 wrote:

The cross over between marital practices and rituals are interesting.  I found a dozen rituals between PH 1 and PH2 that you could convert into marital practices, keeping them almost the same.  For example, you can convert Breath Underwater into scuba diving.  The only difference is that instead of breathing water, you have a air tank (sack, jar, whatever..) which is the component and and you can have it last the same length of time.  When you need to refill the tank would cost the same as buying the sacred herbs or reagents to cast the spell again.

I think martial practices more completely developed could could end up being grouped in various ways, that one is a wierd science related to the clock-work tech from the leonardo davinci/icarus genius caliber quasi-magical hang glider, to gain man powered flight which has a breaks easily on landing limit requiring you to rebuild the thing all the time, flavor for the material components and time.

thanson02 wrote:

e idea of actions that are extensions seemed to be the focus of skill training required feats and the skill powers in the core books.  

Skill powers were sometimes things I might allow via a normal application of the skill but made more reliable because you spent the resource of a utility slot on them so maybe you can do this without rolling the dice. (like mayhaps you can mount a mount at reduced action cost with one of the nature skills)

I do think skill use in combat ought to be encouraged and at minimum most skill powers seem to be about having well defined possibilities in that arena as well as the added versatility of having cross-class defined powers.